timecode conflict

wrrn wrote on 2/25/2005, 6:00 PM
My client gave me a text breakdown of timecode for his video. The various timecode points are to become markers for use in DVDA for the menu.

Here's the problem -- he gave me timecode in the format of minutes:seconds, but Vegas does not offer this choice. I always work in the industry standard hours:minutes:seconds:frames. So when I try to find his timecode of 05:20, it's more like 00:04:27:22.

I don't know what format the original was shot in, but he provided me with mini-dv source tapes.

Is there a way around this, or should he provide me with the industry standard timecode? Suggestions? Thnx.

Comments

filmy wrote on 2/25/2005, 6:44 PM
Backing up a second - Vegas, and most other NLE's, do offer you a "standard" run time...as in hours and minute and so on. But "industry standard" - depends on the industry but overall that is SMPTE TC - either drop or non drop. For shooting this translates into Reel/Tape number:minutes:seconds:frames. Most consumer and pro-sumer cameras do not have an option to set SMPTE and they record each tape the same - hour:minutes:seconds. Most VCR's give this format back to you as well - many do not even read the TC. So someone sitting at home taking notes will tell you that something should happen/change at 5 minutes 26 seconds it is not coming from anything other than the place they zero the VCR's counter at. Now if they expect you to be frame accurate that is another story.

But the question is about Vegas options - and it offers up many options including industry standard SMPTE options as well as basic run time.

Options such as:

Samples
Time
Seconds
Time and Frames
Absolute Frames
SMPTE Film (IVTC)
SMPTE Film
SMPTE EBU
SMPTE Non-Drop
SMPTE Drop
SMPTE 30

Pick the one that you need. But if you are saying that "I can't figure out what he wants because Vegas only show hours:minutes:seconds:frames and not only minutes:seconds" you are correct - but, and I mean no offense here, if you can not translate run time into timeline time because it does not have hours before it and seconds/frame after you need to learn more about the editing world. On the other hand - if this is what you require, in the future you will know that you have to hand a spec sheet over to your clients before they hand you over any material. Tell them you will only accept SMPTE Drop-Frame or only accept time and frames or whatever you need.

For me it is not a big deal - we used to do this all time with work prints/rough cuts. I would get notes about such and such a shot at such and such a time. When we would screen rough cuts it would be with a pad and paper in hand joting down notes in a screening room. We went off of the scene/shot and reel number - not run time. Many times the rough cut was a video that was made with a video camera aimed at the moviola screen. Other times it was low rez output from a NLE with the only window burn being the original one from telecine of the dailies. So I wouldn't go back to the client and demand he gave you the correct notes with the "standard" time format. From what you say, IMO, it is not that big of a deal - you just need your client to sign off that they understand what you will be doing will not be frame accurate based on the notes you got.
wrrn wrote on 2/25/2005, 8:40 PM
Thanks Filmy for the detailed reply.
I did speak with the client today, and he said he obtained the timecode from watching the mini-dv tape through his camcorder.
It appears that his time is ~54 seconds ahead of what I pulled in to Vegas, so I'll just adjust for those seconds with each menu marker.
On the other hand, it would be good to know why this discrepancy occured. Comments welcome.
filmy wrote on 2/25/2005, 9:34 PM
Just to be clear here - what did you pull into your computer? I mean was it an edited master or was it raw footage? If it was raw footage and what he looked at and gave you was the exact same it would have to be somehting on your end...I mean provided he was actually looking at frame by frame TC and not trying to do it real time and hit the pause button.

The other side of it is this - if he gave you an edited tape and he was looking at the edit on a timeline than that could be where the issue comes in. For example in Vegas what you see on the timeline, as far as TC goes, is not what will be recorded onto the tape. By all accounts Vegas does *not* record TC out...so if I dumped out a project from my timeline that started at 00:00:00.00 but added black and bars-n-tone on my PTT the actual first frame of picture as recorded to tape could start off at 00:00:54.00 - following me? Likewise if the VCR counter was not reading tape TC and the client set zero at first frame that would also be a reason to be off.

Another, more simple, reason might be the timeline ruler is not set correctly. Although if it is 54 seconds off right from frame 1 it would be more than that.

If the TC is at a constant 54 seconds off you can enter an offset into Vegas and you can enter the offset on the media itself. I am only guessing that each number he gave you is 54 seconds off - if it varies any these methods won't work as you want them to.

Media: Right click on the media in the media pool. Choose Properites. Under "timecode" click on "Use Custom timecode". Now enter the type of Timecode and the 54 second offest.

Timeline: A few various methods that do the same thing -
1> Place cursor at first frame. Right click on timelines time. Choose "Set time at Cursor". A window will open by the cursor - enter in your 54 second offset.

2> Right click on the timecode "window" - choose "Time Format", then choose "Set time at Cursor". Enter in the offset.

3> Go to Project Properties. Choose the "Ruler" tab. In the "Ruler Start time" type in your offset.

One, or all, of these should help you out.
GaryKleiner wrote on 2/25/2005, 9:51 PM
> he obtained the timecode from watching the mini-dv tape through his camcorder.<

Go to preferences> Video> Show source frames numbers on event thumbnails as:Timecode.

Now you can see on the timeline the timecode that matches your client's.

Gary
wrrn wrote on 2/26/2005, 10:32 AM
Gary - your soultion helped show the TC as it is on the tape.
Filmy - your solution made the time display and time ruler show the ammended TC to match the tape.
I'm assuming my client was only providing minutes:seconds because his player did not show frames too. Anyway, his provided marker times are NOW matching my timeline. Hurray!
Thanks both. I learned something new.

Last questions -
If I layed my video back to tape with the adjusted TC, will the new tape now display the TC from vegas, or does the tape's TC take precedence?
Are there any repurcussions I should be aware of by using the "set time at cursor" option? (no other entity needs to edit the video after me)

Filmy, In answer to your question: I pullled in an edited master, but the client did not see frame accurate TC. I'm pretty sure he was hitting the pause button and using the mins:secs from the counter.

warren
filmy wrote on 2/26/2005, 11:55 AM
>>>If I layed my video back to tape with the adjusted TC, will the new tape now display the TC from vegas, or does the tape's TC take precedence?
Are there any repurcussions I should be aware of by using the "set time at cursor" option?<<<

You might have missed it in my post above but Vegas does not output timecode during a PTT. In other words what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. (ok - bad Pun) Your time code adjustment on the timeline does not change render timecode nor does any sort of timecode adjustments that you make to the actual media. Vegas outputs zero timecode start for every render. Thusly you would have to set up your record deck with the TC you wanted - relize here that Vegas does not do online so there really is no way to do a frame accurate insert *from* Vegas *to* a tape. I am one of the few people who ever seem to find this as a shortcoming of Vegas...the whole time code issue overall that is. The idea that many people are stuck with is that when you render it is a "new" file - so you don't need any sort of timecode other than brand new code. I can agree with that except I want to take it a step further - maybe I want the new file to have a time code start at hour 1. Or maybe when I spilt up a project I want time code to be hour 1 for tape 1 and hour 2 for tape 2...and so on. But from Vegas you can't do that, at least not on the render side or PTT side.

Having said all this - SD-Connect is available and does allow for frame accurate inserts from Vegas going to Betacam or Digibeta Decks. I have not used it but Spot raves about it. Tim Duncan did a good piece on multi camera edit with Vegas and SD-Connect that you can read here: The 20th Annual Stellar Awards
wrrn wrote on 2/26/2005, 12:05 PM
Many thanks. I appreciate your time.
GaryKleiner wrote on 2/26/2005, 12:07 PM
>Vegas does not output timecode during a PTT. In other words what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.<

Funny.

G