Timecode on Vegas produced AVCHD DVDs

Sebaz wrote on 1/13/2008, 6:24 AM
I love that Vegas allows to produce AVCHD DVDs from the timeline, which I'm using quite a lot, but my only complaint is that when I put the disc in my Sony Blu-Ray player it doesn't show any timecode. On the front display it doesn't show anything, and if I press display on the remote it only shows the bitrate on screen, and it's not even the right one because it shows 10.50 going up and down a few decimals, and I encode AVC at 15 Mbps with 448 kbps AC3.

Am I missing something? Is the disc supposed to be like this, without a timecode, or is it maybe a glitch with the player itself?

Comments

blink3times wrote on 1/13/2008, 7:23 AM
Sorry... just a bit off track here and I can't help you with your problem. I just want to note that the disk creation straight from the time line is new to Vegas, and it's a REAL time saver! Other programs have this feature for all video types and I HOPE Vegas spans in this direction too.
Laurence wrote on 1/13/2008, 7:43 AM
I'd like to point out that the discs that Vegas makes from the timeline are Blu-ray format rather than AVCHD format. Yes they have the option of using AVCHD compression, but an AVCHD format disc is something different.

What is the difference? A Blu-ray format disc like Vegas can burn from the timeline has to be on a BD-R in order for a Sony Blu-ray player to read it properly. An AVCHD format disc can be on a DVD+-R and still read correctly on a Blu-ray player, menus and all.

If you put a Blu-ray format disc burned off a Vegas timeline in a Blu-ray player like a PS3, it will show up as a data disc. From there you can can step through the directories and find the video stream clips and play them, but that is not really all that convenient.

On the other hand, if you author an AVCHD disc in Ulead Movie Factory Plus or Nero and put it in a Blu-ray player, it will immediately start playing beginning. If you have menus it will start there. Otherwise it will just begin playing the video. This is so much better.

Quality wise, an AVCHD format disc is limited to an upper bitrate of 15mbps. This is the same as the default templates for Blur-ray format disc with AVCHD encoding, I believe that if you are authoring in Blu-ray format you are allowed to set this higher, but the templates are the same. In any case, the quality of an AVCHD disc and a Blu-ray disc using AVCHD encoding at 15mbps is of course the same. The only difference is that BD-R allows you more recording time (and costs about $600 for the burner and $20 each for the discs).

The reason I'm bringing all this up is that there are MANY cases where being able to burn an AVCHD format disc instead of an AVCHD encoded Blu-ray disc would be preferable. These would include any time that you where burning an hour or less of content encoded with AVCHD at 15 mbps and wanted to spend less than $20 on a disc!
Laurence wrote on 1/13/2008, 7:58 AM
Just a couple of notes about AVCHD disc vs. Blu-ray with AVCHD encoding:

All the Sony Blu-ray players I've tried will play back an AVCHD disc burned onto DVD+-R properly. By that I mean that when you stick the disc in the player, it will immediately play the main authored menu if you put one in there, or just the video if you didn't.

Samsung Blu-ray players unfortunately won't recognize an AVCHD format disc. The will recognize a Blu-ray format disc burned onto DVD+-R however. A fix to this is just a firmware update away however. I know this because early Samsung firmware updates were compatible with AVCHD discs burned onto DVD+-R, but recent firmware updates have removed this feature. I expect it it will be put back in future updates.

If you burn a Blu-ray formatted disc onto regular DVD+-R and try to play it back in a Sony player, it will be seen as a data disc. From there you can step through the directories and play back the raw video files.
Spot|DSE wrote on 1/13/2008, 8:04 AM
in interests of clarifying;
The option to burn a disc from the Vegas timeline has existed since Version 2. Adding a BD template to this is new in Vegas Pro 8.
Hopefully we'll never see menu-authoring from the timeline ala Pinnacle.
Former user wrote on 1/13/2008, 8:14 AM
The option to burn a CD from the timeline has existed, not the option to burn a DVD.

Dave T2
blink3times wrote on 1/13/2008, 8:19 AM
"in interests of clarifying;
The option to burn a disc from the Vegas timeline has existed since Version 2. Adding a BD template to this is new in Vegas Pro 8.
Hopefully we'll never see menu-authoring from the timeline ala Pinnacle."
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Sorry, as Dave notes, you CAN NOT burn a dvd from the timeline. And as far as Pinnacle goes.... the OPTION is there to burn from the time line, but you don't HAVE TO. This world is all about options... Pinnacle gives you the option... Vegas doesn't.
Spot|DSE wrote on 1/13/2008, 9:04 AM
a-Note that I said "discs", not DVDs.
b-Even in the Burn CD option, when choosing a MultiMedia option, DVDs may be burned.
I only have versions 6/7/8 on this laptop, so can't check older versions than those, but you can burn a DVD from those older versions.

Yes, Pinnacle offers the option. An option that is plagued with difficulties and loads more into the cache than is necessary, causing problems. We don't need more code loading, we need less code loading, IMO.
blink3times wrote on 1/13/2008, 9:44 AM
"Yes, Pinnacle offers the option. An option that is plagued with difficulties and loads more into the cache than is necessary, causing problems. We don't need more code loading, we need less code loading, IMO."
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Interesting you say that because I have both Avid Liquid and Pinnacle studio. I have plenty of success with direct-time line burn. I won't say that these programs don't have bugs... but I will say that they present no more or less than Vegas does, and of the problems I do have with Pinnacle, almost none of them have much to do with direct time line burn. Moreover, with direct timeline burn, you NEVER end up rendering/recompressing twice.


"b-Even in the Burn CD option, when choosing a MultiMedia option, DVDs may be burned."

So you're saying we can kind of "trick" Vegas into it? Why should we want to trick Vegas into anything? If we have to go to this extend then would it not make more sense just to include it?
Former user wrote on 1/13/2008, 10:31 AM
Spot,

I know this is off topic, but you are saying Vegas 6 or 7 can burn DVDs, but do they burn them as a DVD Mpeg2 format, or as either data or VCD on a DVD disk?

And yes I noted you said Discs which is why I attemtped to clarify.

Dave T2
Sebaz wrote on 1/13/2008, 12:28 PM
"If you burn a Blu-ray formatted disc onto regular DVD+-R and try to play it back in a Sony player, it will be seen as a data disc. From there you can step through the directories and play back the raw video files."

Actually the "mini Blu-Rays" that I burn from the timeline are recognized fine in my Sony BDP-S300 player and it displays AVCHD as the disc format. If I go to the system menu the title list is grayed out and thus unaccessible. Also I suppose as a result of the timecode problem, it doesn't support resume after stop, although when you stop it it shows "resume" on the screen, but upon pressing play it starts again at the beginning.

Another weird occurrence is that chapters seem to be located about one second before where you actually placed them on the timeline, and when you press the Next button, the OSD shows Search *-655, every single time you press it, no matter what chapter you're in. Really weird.

Oh, and you can set a template to burn AVC to more than 15 mbps, but the player doesn't recognize it. Well, to be honest I haven't tried 16, 17, 18 or 19, I only tried 20 mbps and the player didn't recognize it, and I had read somewhere that AVCHD discs topped at 15 Mbps, so I didn't do any more testing on that. 15 Mpbs at 1440x1080 coming from HDV looks pretty good to me, I don't see any motion artifacts, but I normally don't like to shoot with excessive motion anyway.
Laurence wrote on 1/13/2008, 7:59 PM
Are you saying that you can burn BD9 or "mini Blu-rays" from the Vegas timeline? I tried doing exactly that without any luck not too long ago. I don't believe I've tried it since updating to 8a though.

My Blu-ray player is a PS3, and it will not read regular BD format on DVD-R properly though it reads an BD9 formatted DVD+-R just fine.

For anyone not sure what I am talking about, check out this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#BD9_.2F_Mini-Blu-ray_Disc
InterceptPoint wrote on 1/14/2008, 6:39 AM
I'm curious if anyone knows what the specific file structure Sony uses for their AVCHD cameras.

Here is what I know:

The Memory Stick from my CX7 when plugged into my PS3 plays just like a menu-less DVD.

If I copy the complete file structure from Memory Stick to CF format and plug that into my PS3 it plays as a menu-less DVD.

If I copy the complete file structure to a DVD+R or DVD-R and try to play it on the PS3 is shows up a data disk and I have to go to the STREAM folder to find the videos which then have to played one by one. Not nice.

The Holy Grail for me would be a simple way to archive the AVCHD clips from the CX7 to a DVD disk, without quality loss, that would both allow me to pull them off for editing and would play as a menu-less DVD in the PS3 or other Blu-Ray player.

Is there a way to do that?


4eyes wrote on 1/14/2008, 10:30 AM
InterceptPoint,
If your files in the STREAMS folder use the MTS file extension I don't think they will work as an AVCHD disk burn to dvd.
When you do make an AVCHD disk to playback in a Blu-Ray disk player (PS3) you have to burn the disk in either UDF2.5 or UDF 2.6 format otherwise it will be displayed as a data disk.
In Nero you can do this selecting UDF Only file system "Manual Partitioning -> Physical Partition -> 2.6

If they are in the MTS container format it would be nice to have a program that can just re-multiplex the video/audio streams into a m2ts container (which is what's used on an AVCHD disk).
I think that MF6+ will do this.
I'll give it a try and post back, first I have to make the MTS containers using Nero 8.
But the MTS files should be considered avc/h264 compliant and just passed through the encoder.

Edit: Yes, it worked. Used the source avc/hd264 compliant xxxx.MTS files from the STREAMS folder in MF6+, made some chapters, a menu and burned a disk. No videos were re-encoded.
The program went directly to video/audio multi-plexing and burning the avchd dvd.
bigrock wrote on 1/14/2008, 10:31 AM
Let's all thank Sony Marketing for creating the worst possible format ever, and enough choas to last a lifetime. This garbage we are currently experiencing is the real reason Sony torpedoed any reconcilation with Hd-DVD prior to market introduction. Sony would not want a format out there that puts the power in the hands of the end user. Much better for Sony if they can control the format and create market choas like they have know, unfortunately we all pay for that in the end. It is so much easier to create proper Hd-DVD's with all the bells and whistles than this bluray proprietrary crap, has the public ever been suckered. And we as Sony Vegas editors don't even a working solution in our suite to build the stupid things, ridiculous.

BigRockies.com Your Home in the Rockies!
InterceptPoint wrote on 1/14/2008, 1:31 PM
4eyes:

Thanks for the testing on my behalf.

I have Nero and am a few days into the evaluation version of MF6+ so it looks like I have all the tools I need. I'll run the experiment with MF6+ on my native .mts files and see what happens.
Sebaz wrote on 1/14/2008, 4:16 PM
"Are you saying that you can burn BD9 or "mini Blu-rays" from the Vegas timeline? I tried doing exactly that without any luck not too long ago. I don't believe I've tried it since updating to 8a though."

Well, I think they are BD9s, I put them in the player and they play, I don't have to select the file or anything, it's a single movie disc that plays automatically. I don't know if it would have the same behavior in every Blu-Ray player though, this is the only one I have.
4eyes wrote on 1/14/2008, 7:47 PM
InterceptPoint,
The evaluation version (trial) doesn't work very well, they never updated it so in my opinion it's a bugged release. It's good for making HD-DVD's, not anything with avc/h264.
In the trial version you cannot insert any avc/h264 video files directly into the timeline.
You can import them but it doesn't read them correctly.
The patches to the program fix these problems. You cannot install updates to the trial version of MF6+. The software doesn't run on everyone's computer either, some have problems with it.

Reference to Nero 8 which is supposed to smart-render avchd, well it does but not sure how compliant the avc/h264 videos are after they are smart-rendered. I wouldn't re-use them in any more projects. I have trouble playing them back via the disk using Nero Showtime. Yet, the avc/h264 videos from Vegas I use in MF6+ the discs play without any problems.
Also with Nero to smartrender and not re-encode the avc/h264 video you have to export from Vegas using 13MBS, Nero uses 14MBS max, 13MBS plus the audio stays slightly under 14MBS.
I've no problems using the vegas videos in MF6+.

Sebaz,
What Blu-Ray player are you using? The Samsung?
Vegas creates a BDMV disk without menus. Just the video.
InterceptPoint wrote on 1/14/2008, 8:53 PM
4eyes: You are right about the trial version of MF6+.

It was clear that it was not going to do the job so I made a trip to Fry's and bought the real thing. It worked as advertised but with a couple of problems:

1. You can cook dinner waiting for MF6+ to put clips on the timeline.

2. I get a one second or so pause between clips. (As opposed to the original Sony .mts files that play smooth as silk.

But the render was pretty quick even on my antique 1.9 GHz Pentium and the quality looks pretty darn good.

4eyes wrote on 1/14/2008, 9:33 PM
InterceptPoint: That's good.
Another note with that program is to make sure you install the lastest Directx 9.0c dated November 2007 if you using XP .
I use an Intel Q6600 machine now for avc/h264 videos. They are pretty fast, so much easier.
So you know even using MF6+ with a quad it's not that fast. Vegas handles the avc/h264 video files much better for editing, no comparison between the 2 programs. MF6+ is basically good for authoring and a few other tricks it can perform...........
My P4's 2.8Ghz & 3.2Ghz are also slow for avc/h264 at the high bit-rates, low bit-rates they aren't to bad. Actually my avc/h264 videos encoded from Vegas at 12MBS-13MBS are acceptable. The 15MBS avc/h264 videos encoded by Vegas are excellent.

To me even 4MBS-8MBS looks much better than if it was Standard Def on DVD, as long as I keep the same frame-size.
DJPadre wrote on 1/14/2008, 9:36 PM
U know, its funny...

why not integrate AVCHD codecs within DVDA... It doesnt have to follow MPG2 blueprint protocols but at least we would have DVDA authoring AVCHD usng the same techniques and menus were already accustomed with..

i mean theres no reason why it cant be done, it just seems to me that theyre focusing on the wrong areas here... Obvioulsy they have the licensing to render Dolby Digital within an AVCHD stream as we can see it within vegas, but id raher have that license in DVDA.

This is an absolute joke IMO and its a terrible way to manage this entire HD delivery element. Fair enough Ulead can do this, but do we really WANT to use Ulead products? Do we have to continue to jump from application to application?
I dont see why it is so hard to render out to AVCHD and then to render our to AC3 5.1, input into menu based discs made in DVDA and allow it to mux the two exactly like it does at this time with MPG2...
there is NO REASON for this not to happen, and there is no reason to allow this to happen.
The Ac3 encoder with AVCHD rendering is a joke. Render times are affected by its existance even though its not necessary. The reason it exists is becase Vegas is muxing teh AVCHD video and AC3 audio file on its own.

I mean ok, consider this. you have a client who wants theor project in HD (AVCHD) and standard def.

The idea would then be to edit in HD, do your 5.1 mix and render.
HOW you would render is as follows.
AVCHD@15mbps
MPG2 @ whatevr bitrate you need
Render AC3 tro 384 ro 448kbps

Now you have 3 master files...
In architect you create 1 project.
Insert AVCHD as your media assets and create your disc image
Once that is done
Go back to DVDA and SWAP the video media files and project settings to coply with SD DVD.

This is the simplest way to create workable, menu driven DVDs (be they HD or SD) using existing encoders, codecs, and menu functions.
With this, you can encode 1 AC3 file

With the current system, not only do you have to render AC3 twice (one within AVCHD the other as external Ac3 for DVDA), but you also have to create the disc image using differnt applications.

Im sorry but to me that is NOT a woorkable or effiecient system

And whatever happened to Dolby True HD? Bit for Bit audio encoding for BD...

COME ON SCS, GET WITH THE PROGRAM!!!!
TALK TO YOUR USERS AND FIND OUT HOW THEY WORK THE GEAR.