Too good to be true?

farss wrote on 5/5/2003, 7:22 PM
I've run a test on VV4 as best I can converting PAL DV to NTSC and it seems to work 100% OK, don't really have anyway to try it the other way around. To do the test I rendered PAL project out as NTSC and recorded onto DSR-11 switched to NTSC and played back through pro monitor, video looks like perfect NTSC but I know there can be a lot of gremlins in this process that a monitor may not show up.

Previously the only way I could do this was through a S&W standards converter worth the national debt.

Can anyone confirm that the conversion using VV4 is as good as it gets?

If it is that alone would justify the price of VV4 and why don't they promote this feature, let me tell you its a big thing here in Australia and I'm getting hoarse doing SoFo's marketing for them.

Comments

SonyEPM wrote on 5/6/2003, 8:57 AM
If it looks REALLY good maybe you aren't actually converting?

Seriously, I've sent NTSC through a really expensive Pal/Secam hardware converter and quality wasn't any better than the Vegas transcode. "Best" quality rendering will help-
Baylo wrote on 5/6/2003, 9:12 AM
Does 'best' make a noticeable difference when converting from NTSC to PAL? Will it help minimise the jerkiness on horizontal pans?

I just did a conversion at 'good' quality and it took ages. If there's generally a noticeable difference then I'm prepared to re-render. If not, I won't. I realize this is somewhat subjective, but I'd appreciate an indication of what to expect / under what conditions the difference can be seen.

Thanks,

Mark
farss wrote on 5/6/2003, 9:35 AM
Thanks for taking the time to reply,
I was pretty sure it was transcoded otherwise the VCR and monitor wouldn't have accepted the signal. What worried me though was I'd never seen the ability to do this touted as a feature. Mostly we get stuff thats going out on VHS anyway so it doesn't have to be over the top perfect, but being able to render out both a PAL and NTSC version or to bring in some NTSC video from overseas and add some local PAL shots is pretty convenient.

And to think the first converter I saw was a NTSC monitor with a PAL camera parked in front of it!
filmy wrote on 5/6/2003, 10:22 AM
I think they still might do that, although you don't hear the "analog coversion" and the "digital conversion" much anymore. My solution, at least for screeners, is to burn a VCD or SVCD because computers don't really see NTSC/PAL and beyond that now APEX has a very inexpesive DVD/VCD/SVCD player that will play either PAL or NTSC. My mother sends over PAL DVD's and I pop them into the Apex AD-1500 and the covert into an NTSC signal perfectly for playback here in the US.

My point is that there are options now that weren't options 20 years ago or more. Cost of a CD burner and blank media these days is so cheap the VCD/SVCD option is probably the cheapest way to go. Cost of the Apex stuff is well under $100 US so set top playback can be had without expensive multi format monitors and so on.
farss wrote on 5/6/2003, 6:12 PM
Just about every DVD player will also play either and most of the VHS VCRs sold here will play out a "PAL" feed into our PAL TVs from a NTSC tape. However they are not doing a frame rate conversion, basically they just shift the colour burst enough so the TV can cope. You cannot take the signal coming out of the VCR and record it onto another PAL VCR.
Thats not to say theres anything wrong with what you are doing, I use this kind of solution all the time myself.

Doing a proper conversion involves altering the frame rate and remapping pixels. Its much the same as going from film to NTSC. Going back from NTSC to PAL at 25fps involves mergering frames as best I can see. To do this at broadcast quality in realtime means a very expensive box (about $US50K).

The analogue (air gap) converters are long gone, the first digital converters took up 4 6 foot racks, it takes up 1 RU now but still costs a bundle.
filmy wrote on 5/15/2003, 1:45 PM
I just now saw you had responded to what I had said - It is still not the norm that NTSC DVD players and VCR's output PAL, at least not in the US. I know over in Europe a lot of DVD players have switches on the back to go from NTSC > PAL, but here NTSC is just that - no switch in the back, NTSC output only. The APEX DVD player I mentioned has an auto detect for PAL/NTSC in it but also has a button to push for PAL/NTSC output (As opposed to conversion) so in theory I could also run the output through a PAL TV or a PAL VCR. As this is an NTSC model I do not know how the PAL model looks but I would thik the same. It cost maybe 50 - 60 Dollars US and does the coversions extremly nice. I compare this to an Aiwa Multi-Standard "digital" VCR that was purchased for about 1,000 Dollars US about 6 years ago and the output was crap compared to what the Apex DVD puts out. I guess the point to my post before was that if you needed to send out a PAL screener to the US or Japan you could burn a VCD/SVCD to look at on a computer, it might save the pre-render coversion from PAL > NTSC (or vice versa). Or if the person you were sending it to had a DVD player such as the Apex AD-1500 they could watch it on a TV, or even dub it out to video, as it is and not have to view on a computer.

I don't know of any NTSC VCR that allows you to play back a PAL video to be able to do what you talk about. (Unless you are talking about a Multi-Standard VCR)
Carel wrote on 5/15/2003, 3:15 PM
Filmy,
About the Apex-1500:
Amazon.com says: "Compatible with NTSC and PAL televisions and discs (as long as the discs are Region 1)"
Is there some un-documented setting to switch to different regions?
filmy wrote on 5/15/2003, 3:22 PM
Actually it is region 1 *or* Region free. If you are making a project with VV and want to burn that to a VCD/SVCD or even a DVD there would not be any region coding on that disk thusly it would playback on any player anywhere.