Rob,
It's true, once you break the seal, most companies will consider it sold. However, I'm not sure they can legally do that. Why even bother to have a check box to select whether I "accept" the agreement if you are basically saying I have accepted it by opening the box? I think you could make a case that you cannot be bound to an agreement that you have never seen nor had the chance to see. A RETAILER can refuse to refund your money, because their store probably has a clearly displayed policy somewhere that says you can't return opened software. But your EULA is not with the retailer, it's with the publisher. It would certainly be messy, though.

As I understand it, in the state of NJ(and I assume some other states have similar laws), you have 3 days to back out of ANY contract, PERIOD. Marriage, Real Estate purchase, cell phone contract, anything. I would think software purchases would fall under this as well if you haven't used it or reduced its value(ie damaged it). Perhaps they could charge you the cost of re-sealing the box in plastic wrap. :)

Bottom line is, you probably DO have some leg to stand on, but there's no guarantee that the company will do it for you. You could fight it, and probably win, but it might not be easy.

Back to the original poster, I have seen many EULAs and they come in both flavors(per user and per PC) and even more types than that. You just have to find out what you are getting, and whether their EULA meets your needs.

-Jayson

Hopefully new federal laws will be coming into effect soon that ban "shrink-wrap" licenses. Any legally binding EULA will have to be available in full to the purchaser before the purchase is made. Any terms that are only seen after receiving or opening or installing the software will be null and void. Sadly, this is not true yet. Most software publishers are allowed to make up and enforce any license terms they wish, as long as they don't contradict standing laws.

That being said, the last thing any software company wants is bad press. If you make a stink about it, they'll probably do something to make you happy. Even if they are following their stated terms to the letter, you can probably get lots of people in various forums upset about their treatment of you, and maybe enough so that they will want to get you to stop talking about it in any way that makes you happy. Heck, i've had a couple of cases with sales of my own software where i've refunded the customer's money and given them something extra at very minor complaints. This usually makes them happy enough to promote my services even if they're not using my stuff anymore.

However, before you proceed, make sure you really have been wronged. If you could have easily found out about the license per computer requirement before purchasing it then you really don't have a case. If it's something that you merely didn't notice until after spending your money then it's your responsibility to research more carefully.

Many states have invalidated the Open and Own doctrine. Without installing, you don't know how the software will operate, it may conflict, etc. How this all plays out is anyone's guess on a state by state basis. Some states allow 72 hours, some allow 5 working days. It will be interesting to see how Red Giant handles it. Please let us know, will ya?
BTW, As Bstro pointed out, Sony is the odd man out there regarding multiple licenses. Expect to see more enforcement as Longhorn rolls out.

This is why, call me crazy, I've always liked the idea of the dongle -- especially with the new USB dongles that can hold authorizations for many different appications and plugins etc. I believe I must be the only one though, judging from the looks I usually get when I mention this.

I don't like being mistreated or mistrusted by software companies. When I used Pro Tools, for which you had to use authorizations contained on floppy discs, some companies would make you grovel before believing that your authorization disc got roached and that you didn't just sell it. If you buy Maya, the animation software, you can only install the software on one computer. You can't even uninstall it and put it on another computer, as far as I can tell.

Dongles remove that whole element - you can install the software on as many computers as you wanted - desk top, notebook, even remote studios. No BS, no need for computer ID stamping, no mistrust and the bassakward hoops and destructive/invasive copy protection schemes (PACE, syncrosoft, Waves).

I'll crawl back into my cave now....

Cheers,

Steve

I'll second the dongle idea. Even with the problems associated with lost or broken dongles, I appreciate having the flexibility to install and use the software on multiple computers - I use Steinberg Cubase and Hypersonic protected in this way. To me, it's preferable to the "challenge-response" system, although in truth neither method has given me any headaches. Even Microsoft's system for Office and Windows has worked fine for me, and you're allowed to install Office on a laptop and desktop simultaneously.

Kevin.

Steve,
I happen to agree w/you. I carry all my WAVES authorizations on a dongle and love it. While on tour, I lost my WAVES use due to a Creative Labs corruption. I downloaded the new version from the web, ran the installer, it recognized my PACE dongle. Much sweeter than having to re-register and explain.
Same goes for Avid, and FCP Express.

Sorry, I wasn't clear... I was specifically referring to the seal on the disc envelope itself, not the box. I guess I don't see it as much anymore, but there used to be a lot of software that had the EULA on the envelope that the disc comes in (inside the box)...or at least a sticker that essentially said "by opening this, you agree to the terms of the agreement..."

Maybe it's not legally enforceable, and that's why I don't see them much anymore. ?

Rob

I had a simular experience with Sony Screenblast Acid. I got it after the SF versions was discontinued. The Sony/SoFo said that SB Acid was a replacment for Acid Music. The EULA on the SF/Sony site said that all the software fell under the same EULA.

Well, when I recieved my copy of the program, the EULA in the book specificly said in Section 2 part b) You may not use the software commercially.

Of course I didn't find this out UNTIL after I installed & used the software for a couple days. After all, the EULA I read on mediasoftware.sonypictures.com didn't say that.

So, I e-mailed Sony tech. Explained to them that I went by the EULA on mediasoftware.sonypictures.com (which, according to it, covered all software sold by Sony Media Software then). Eventuatly, i got an e-mail that said "You can use the software to product music for commercial purposes. This phrase just refers to replicating the software itself for money."

Doesn't sound that way to me, but I've got a printed copy of the ENTIRE 9 page e-mail for proof. :)

Oh, the liscence for the screenblast software specificly you can only install the softwre on one comp at a time, not ony RUN it on one comp at a time like Vegas. :)

Actually I purchased the download version. So there was no seal to be broken. The EULA was not accessible until I actually started the installation of the SW, which I then stopped. I wrote 2 emails to Red Giant asking them to either give me a 100% refund of the purchase or allow me to install the SW on minimin 2 computers and run the software alternatively (!) on one of them without extra charges. I'll keep you informed how things work out.

As far as I know the "pay for usage" model is standard in the software industry. Take IBM, SAP or any other major software company, they never charge per computer, it's always ugase. The methods how they do this though are different (dongles, concurrent server keys, etc).

Anyway I think that the "Red Giant policy" is like going for dinner to the restaurant and having to pay the full menu for the two empty seats at your table.

Dr. Z:
What assume the EULA gives you the option to return the software "immediately" if you object to something contained in the EULA (yes?), and that, option comes with the software maker's implied agreement to refund your money.

In my early computer years, I bought a copy of Excel to accomplish a specific task (silly me, thinking that a single task justified the purchase of Excel - or that the inability to accomplish that task made Excel useless to me). Long story short, MS at the time offerred a satisfaction guarantee (can't remember if it was 15, 30, or 60 days) on all their software products. I couldn't take the package back to the retailer, but a call to Microsoft was all I neeeded to get a return authorization. I mailed the opened and once installed package to MS and they sent me a refund. It was painless.

I have since, of coursee, repurchased Excel several times and use it daily.

Most of the software packages I use allow multiple installs but only one use at a time - and I'm glad to be rid of those protection schemes that limit the number of installations.

My copy of MS Access (version 2.0 from ten or so years ago) came on floppies that allowed one installation. On subsequent installations, each of the eight or so floppies would constantly warn during the installation that the product had been previously installed and that only the authorized user could re-install it. This required you to sit at the computer and hit OK (to confirm your authorization) once every ten seconds or so as the installation process progressed - very annoying. To my knowledge, there was no uninstall option to restore your install privileges to the floppies.

I'm guessing that you may need to communicate beyond the initial contact to get what you want, but that you will eventually be granted permission to use the software on more than one machine.

Let us know how it works out.

Caruso

EULA's have become far to bloated and its my belief that that's intentional. It's because of this that more often than not the masses ( self included ) just click " I accept " and blow right past it. I wonder how many of us have actually sold our souls to the devil unknowingly. I hate to admit my laziness on the matter, but I know I'm not alone. For cryin out loud you can buy a house with less paperwork. I think its gotten completely out of hand. Few things in the world come with that many printed rules, regulations, musts, do's and don'ts, what happened to good ol " Copyright ". Can you imagine ( and the day may come ) when you buy your favorite bands cd and it comes with a ten page booklets on where you can listen or how many can listen ? Egads. To say that software companies are have gotten a bit arrogant is an understatement. Give me what I paid for and shutup, I'm not buying your software for a lecture. But then I'm the guy at Fry's who won't show his reciept when leaving, don't mean to be a jerk but I find the whole practice insulting.

As for dongles, I can't imagine having something go wrong or loosing one and being SOL till one came in the mail, what a nightmare.

- Ray

www.undergroundplanet.com

Here is an excerpt from the Red Giant / Magic Bullet EULA:
"By installing, copying, downloading, accessing or otherwise using the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, you agree to be bound by the terms of this EULA. If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, do not install or use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT; you may, however, return it to your place of purchase for a full refund."

It states clearly that if you do NOT install the product you can have a full refund. What is a bit unclear is the claim that 'by downloading the SW you agree to the EULA'. That's weird because:

1. if you buy the downloadable version (like I have done) there is no way you can read the EULA before downloading respectively installing the software. So how can I accept an EULA if I'm not asked to read it before?

2. you get a full refund if you don't agree to the EULA, you do not install the software and "return it to your place of purchase". This is contradicting to the fact that you have accepted the EULA by downloading the software, and therefore wouldn't be refunded. And by the way how are you supposed to return a downloadable version of the software to the place of purchase???

Obiviousely at Red Giant they don't read their own EULA.

So far I have absolutely no reply to my emails from Red Giant, so I'll sent them a "kind reminder" by fax. I'll keep you guys updated.

Here is the complete EULA:

END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT FOR THE ORPHANAGE MAGIC BULLET SUITE

IMPORTANT READ CAREFULLY: This End-User License Agreement ("EULA") is a legal agreement between you (either an individual or a single entity) and The Orphanage, Inc. for the software product identified above, which includes computer software and may include associated media, printed materials, and "online" or electronic documentation ("SOFTWARE PRODUCT").

The SOFTWARE PRODUCT also includes any updates and supplements to the original SOFTWARE PRODUCT provided to you by The Orphanage. Any software provided along with the SOFTWARE PRODUCT that is associated with a separate end-user license agreement is licensed to you under the terms of that license agreement. By installing, copying, downloading, accessing or otherwise using the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, you agree to be bound by the terms of this EULA. If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, do not install or use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT; you may, however, return it to your place of purchase for a full refund.

SOFTWARE PRODUCT LICENSE

The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is protected by copyright laws and international copyright treaties, as well as other intellectual property laws and treaties. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed, not sold.

1. GRANT OF LICENSE.

This EULA grants you the following rights: Systems Software. You may install and use one copy of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT on a single computer, including a workstation, terminal or other digital electronic device ("COMPUTER"). Storage/Network Use. You may also store or install a copy of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT on a storage device, such as a network server, used only to install or run the SOFTWARE PRODUCT on your other COMPUTERS over an internal network; however, you must acquire and dedicate a license for each separate COMPUTER on or from which the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is installed, used, accessed, displayed or run. A license for the SOFTWARE PRODUCT may not be shared or used concurrently on different COMPUTERS. Notwithstanding the foregoing, any number of COMPUTERS may access or otherwise utilize the services of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. License Pack. If this package is a Magic Bullet Suite License Pack, you may install and use additional copies of the computer software portion of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT up to the number of copies specified above as "Licensed Copies".

2. DESCRIPTION OF OTHER RIGHTS AND LIMITATIONS.

Academic Edition Software. If the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is identified as "Academic Edition" or "AE," you must be a "Qualified Educational User" to use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. If you are not a Qualified Education User, you have no rights under this EULA. To determine if you are a Qualified Educational User, please contact an authorized Magic Bullet Suite software distributor. Not For Resale Software. If the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is labeled "Not For Resale" or "NFR," then, notwithstanding other sections of this EULA, your use of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is limited to use for demonstration, test, or evaluation purposes and you may not use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT for commercial purposes, resell, or otherwise transfer for value, the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. Limitations on Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, and Disassembly. You may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation. Separation of Components. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed as a single product. Its component parts may not be separated for use on more than one computer. Rental. You may not rent, lease or lend the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. Trademarks. This EULA does not grant you any rights in connection with any trademarks or service marks of The Orphanageª or Magic Bulletª. The Orphanage will not provide you with support services related to the SOFTWARE PRODUCT ("Support Services"). All support services will be provided by the software distributor through whom you have obtained the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. Use of Support Services is governed by software distributor policies and programs described in the user manual, in "on line" documentation and/or other Orphanage-provided materials. Any supplemental software code provided to you as part of the Support Services shall be considered part of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT and subject to the terms and conditions of this EULA. With respect to technical information you provide to the software distributor as part of the Support Services, The Orphanage may use such information for its business purposes, including for product support and development. The Orphanage will not utilize such technical information in a form that personally identifies you. Software Transfer. The initial user of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT may make a one-time permanent transfer of this EULA and SOFTWARE PRODUCT only directly to an end user. This transfer must include all of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT (including all component parts, the media and printed materials, any upgrades and this EULA). Such transfer may not be by way of consignment or any other indirect transfer. The transferee of such one-time transfer must agree to comply with the terms of this EULA, including the obligation not to further transfer this EULA and SOFTWARE PRODUCT. Termination. Without prejudice to any other rights, The Orphanage may terminate this EULA if you fail to comply with the terms and conditions of this EULA. In such event, you must destroy all copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT and all of its component parts.

3. UPGRADES.

If the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is labeled as an upgrade, you must be properly licensed to use a product identified by The Orphanage as being eligible for the upgrade in order to use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. A SOFTWARE PRODUCT labeled as an upgrade replaces and/or supplements the product that formed the basis for your eligibility for the upgrade. You may use the resulting upgraded product only in accordance with the terms of this EULA. If the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is an upgrade of a component of a package of software programs that you licensed as a single product, the SOFTWARE PRODUCT may be used and transferred only as part of that single product package and may not be separated for use on more than one computer.

4. COPYRIGHT.

All title and intellectual property rights in and to the SOFTWARE PRODUCT (including but not limited to any images, photographs, animations, video, audio, music, text, and "applets" incorporated into the SOFTWARE PRODUCT), the accompanying printed materials, and any copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT are owned by The Orphanage. All title and intellectual property rights in and to the content which may be accessed through use of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is the property of the respective content owner and may be protected by applicable copyright or other intellectual property laws and treaties. This EULA grants you no rights to use such content. All rights not expressly granted are reserved by The Orphanage.

5. DUAL-MEDIA SOFTWARE.

You may receive the SOFTWARE PRODUCT in more than one medium. Regardless of the type or size of medium you receive, you may use only one medium that is appropriate for your single computer. You may not use or install the other medium on another computer. You may not loan, rent, lease, lend or otherwise transfer the other medium to another user, except as part of the permanent transfer (as provided above) of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.

6. BACKUP COPY.

After installation of one copy of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT pursuant to this EULA, you may keep the original media on which the SOFTWARE PRODUCT was provided by The Orphanage solely for backup or archival purposes. If the original media is required to use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT on the COMPUTER, you may make one copy of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT solely for backup or archival purposes. Except as expressly provided in this EULA, you may not otherwise make copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT or the printed materials accompanying the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.

7. U.S. GOVERNMENT RESTRICTED RIGHTS.

The SOFTWARE PRODUCT and documentation are provided with RESTRICTED RIGHTS. Use, duplication, or disclosure by the Government is subject to restrictions as set forth in subparagraph (c)(1)(ii) of the Rights in Technical Data and Computer Software clause at DFARS 252.227-7013 or subparagraphs (c)(1) and (2) of the Commercial Computer Software--Restricted Rights at 48 CFR 52.227-19, as applicable. Manufacturer is The Orphanage, Inc./39 Mesa Street/San Francisco, CA 94129. 8. EXPORT RESTRICTIONS. You agree that you will not export or re-export the SOFTWARE PRODUCT to any country, person, entity or end user subject to U.S. export restrictions. You specifically agree not to export or re-export the SOFTWARE PRODUCT: (i) to any country to which the U.S. has embargoed or restricted the export of goods or services, which currently include, but are not necessarily limited to Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria, or to any national of any such country, wherever located, who intends to transmit or transport the products back to such country; (ii) to any end-user who you know or have reason to know will utilize the SOFTWARE PRODUCT or portion thereof in the design, development or production of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons; or (iii) to any end-user who has been prohibited from participating in U.S. export transactions by any federal agency of the U.S. government.

MISCELLANEOUS

If you acquired this product in the United States, this EULA is governed by the laws of the State of California.

If you acquired this product in Canada, this EULA is governed by the laws of the Province of Ontario, Canada. Each of the parties hereto irrevocably agrees to the jurisdiction of the courts of the Province of Ontario and further agrees to commence any litigation which may arise hereunder in the courts located in the Judicial District of York, Province of Ontario. If this product was acquired outside the United States, then local law may apply. Should you have any questions concerning this EULA, or if you desire to contact The Orphanage for any reason, please contact your software distributor through whom you have obtained the SOFTWARE PRODUCT directly.

LIMITED WARRANTY

The Orphanage warrants that (a) the SOFTWARE PRODUCT will perform substantially in accordance with the accompanying written materials for a period of ninety (90) days from the date of receipt, and (b) any Support Services provided by your software distributor shall be substantially as described in applicable written materials provided to you by your software distributor, and its support engineers will make commercially reasonable efforts to solve any problem. To the extent allowed by applicable law, implied warranties on the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, if any, are limited to ninety (90) days. Some states/jurisdictions do not allow limitations on duration of an implied warranty, so the above limitation may not apply to you.

CUSTOMER REMEDIES

The Orphanage's and its suppliers' entire liability and your exclusive remedy shall be, at The Orphanage's option, either (a) return of the price paid, if any, or (b) repair or replacement of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT that does not meet The Orphanage's Limited Warranty and that is returned to The Orphanage with a copy of your receipt. This Limited Warranty is void if failure of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT has resulted from accident, abuse, or misapplication. Any replacement SOFTWARE PRODUCT will be warranted for the remainder of the original warranty period or thirty (30) days, whichever is longer. Outside the United States, neither these remedies nor any product support services offered by The Orphanage are available without proof of purchase from an authorized international source.

NO OTHER WARRANTIES. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, THE ORPHANAGE, ITS SUPPLIERS and YOUR SOFTWARE DISTRIBUTOR DISCLAIM ALL OTHER WARRANTIES AND CONDITIONS, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, IMPLIED WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, TITLE AND NON-INFRINGEMENT, WITH REGARD TO THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT, AND THE PROVISION OF OR FAILURE TO PROVIDE SUPPORT SERVICES. THIS LIMITED WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS. YOU MAY HAVE OTHERS, WHICH VARY FROM STATE/JURISDICTION TO STATE/JURISDICTION. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, IN NO EVENT SHALL THE ORPHANAGE OR ITS SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES WHATSOEVER (INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF BUSINESS PROFITS, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION, LOSS OF BUSINESS INFORMATION, OR ANY OTHER PECUNIARY LOSS) ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT OR THE FAILURE TO PROVIDE SUPPORT SERVICES, EVEN IF THE ORPHANAGE HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. IN ANY CASE, THE ORPHANAGE'S ENTIRE LIABILITY UNDER ANY PROVISION OF THIS EULA SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE GREATER OF THE AMOUNT ACTUALLY PAID BY YOU FOR THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT OR U.S.$5.00. BECAUSE SOME STATES/JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF LIABILITY, THE ABOVE LIMITATION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.

BY the way, Adobe allows you to load their software on one other machine.

Folks, here is the feedback from Red Giant

1. coincidentally they are in the process of revising the licensing agreement, and have appeciated my feedback....

2. I was granted the right to use any red giant products on two computers if they are both strictly being used by myself

This is a fair move from Red Giant and shows that they DO care about their customers. Bravo! I am very satisfied!!!

For all other future Red Giant customers: I hope the guys from Red Giant will truly revise their EULA and offer something similar to the EULA from SONY.