Two Requests for Forum Users

dvddude wrote on 11/4/2003, 11:53 AM
Can I ask two things of all of you?

#1 -- Please use more descriptive subject titles than "Help!!" "Dosn't Work!!!" and so on. You're more likely to have the right eyes attracted to your message if you actually state your business briefly up front. This is true of any forum, but these abbreviated subject lines seem to happen a lot here.

#2 -- Can we not be mean? Really. We're all trying to get some work done here; we are not discussing the good and bad points of the new 'Matrix' DVD. So let's try to be helpful. Every time I see someone getting crabby or writing "RTFM!!!!" I just cringe.

First of all, the Vegas/DVDA manuals are horrendously abbreviated; there really are no answers in them for anything beyone what's obvious from looking at the interface.

In the case of recent posts about the low gain in the AC-3 encoder, for example, this is a problem that affected MANY people, and I do not believe it's reasonable to expect that someone who bought DVDA with advertized Dolby-encoding capabilities should have to go read all of the whitepapers on Dolby's site to figure out the problem. This answer should have been in the Vegas+DVDA manuals, not buried in some third-party whitepaper. And when the product first came out, it took WEEKS for this forum to discover the answer. So it is not obvious; yet it is critical to have the answer.

This is especially nasty when the answer to the question would take a lot less typing than the tirade does.

Sure, I know that many of these questions were answered a year ago, and many times, but only after a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and toil, and it's the nature of online forums that no one goes back through 18 months of postings to find the answer.

Especially when the subject headings are no help ;)

So can't we just help each other out? Can't we all just be friends? This is still pioneering territory (no pun intended) and not everything is easy, straightforward, or in "the effing manual." This forum is a fantatsic tool if we can all just be clear, calm, and honest. If you don't feel like helping out a newbie, then just don't help! That's your prerogative. But don't chew someone down just because they weren't online here last year, or didn't read every whitepaper on DVD creation ever written.

Thanks in advance. Sorry for the discouraging post, but it just seems that as this forum has grown over the last year-plus, there's been a lot of negativity and un-helpfulness creeping in.




Comments

kameronj wrote on 11/4/2003, 4:33 PM
You can ask....I don't have to be nice and reply in kind.

#1. If someone writes "Help! Dosn't Work!!!" I wouldn't know exactly what a "dosn't" is - so I couldn't help them anyway.

#2. When ever I read a post where it is clear that someone has not taken the time to read the manual - I just cringe. The Vegas/DVDA manuals are not horrendously abbreviated - actually, I found them quite useful. And....having taken the time to sit and read them - I can 100%ly state that a great deal of the "questions" that are asked on this board can be answered if the user took the time to read the manual.

Granted - there are some things that could be explained better - or more fuller - or in a language we all could understand. Not everything is straight forward. However - there is no excuse for not reading the documentation and then complaining because you don't understand.

(...and when I say you - I don't mean "you" you...I mean a general you....you know what I mean....don't you?)

As for the your point regarding the tirade and answering the question - I have to be honest....at that point answering the question is not the point. The point is making it understood how rude it is to stumble into the forum and ask a bunch of "why didn't I bother to read the manual" type questions - and want someone else to hold your hand and walk you through to the answer.

I think it is more than rude. But that is just me.

So, sure, it would probably take much less time to explain a situation than it would to type out a soap box tirade - but it would take even less time if a user would read the documentation that has been prepared to aid in the understanding of how to use the product.

While it is true that, for the most part, people don't like to research past postings to perhaps find their answer - especially when the titles don't help in the topic - that is still no excuse in not trying to research or read the manual.

And besides (going back to the subject thing for a second)....a subject for a post is only in the eye of the beholder. Sure, I have read tons of subject lines that were dead on the money for the topic that was contained in the posts. But I have also read a ton more subject lines that had nothing at all to do with the subsequent posts.

So it's moot (for the most part).

It takes a little blood, sweat and tears (or is it Earth, Wind and Fire) to find what you are alooking for sometimes. And the best place to start is with the documentation that comes with the product.

Lastly - I don't think your post is discouraging. I think you are right on the money in saying that this is a great forum. And, if a person doesn't feel like helping a newbie then they shouldn't feel like they have to.

However, I will state that my disagreement with your post is in that I don't think that we (collectively) should be here in any way shape or form to take the place of white papers, archived posts or the effin manual.

I am sure I probably have a question or four about how to use x-y-or-z that, if I took a moment or three and re-read the manual, the answer would be right there on page 72. Or, if someone pointed it out to me I would remember that I had read that before, but just never had a reason to use X-Feature.

But I wouldn't mind going back and taking the time to read the manual or trying to figure it out on my own (especially if the documentation is there). If, however after spending a great deal of time and talking with tech support I find that the answer that I was looking for has never been documented....then I would want to make sure that it was documented for future users - and I would more than happily share the knowledge (because it wasn't documented).

But all the questions and moaning and griping that go on because joe-user doen't know how to insert a chapter page is bunk because they didn't take the time to read the manual. And I'm not going to do their job for them.

(P.S. I was only kidding about the "dosn't"!!)
rebel44 wrote on 11/4/2003, 10:56 PM
About the manual. To be honest with you- I run the program first and experiment with and then if I get stuck with something and can not figure out on my own- I log on this forum and read manual. Like with other software -I am experimenting. See how far I can push it and discover ways not written in manual. This ( and other sonic foundry forums) are source of information and if I can help in any way - I am gladly to do it.
Every forum is to help people understand the software and what the software can do. There is not such of thing as stupid question. It coild be a stupid ( or not intencially) missleading answer.
Some people are getting ungry of some basic question. Not every one was born to be an Einstain. Some people need more explonation to specific topic, but at leasr they trying to understand. Give them credit for.
Let be friendly to each other and help eacj other to understand this software.
BillyBoy wrote on 11/4/2003, 11:37 PM
My views....

The DVD-A manual:

It isn't up to the same standards of the Vegas manual and in places not that well written, more confusing then helpful in a few places and some topics are either glossed over or even skipped. If it was or not, it looks like it was rushed out the door. In short; needs work.

About forums...

In general people come to forums for fast answers. Some claim because they "don't have time to read the manual" yet they expect, sometimes it even sounds like they have some right to demand their questions be answered by those of us that DID read the manual as if we're here just waiting for someone to ask something or maybe they just like the more immediate response.

About posters...

Like with any electronic medium you can't tell just by words alone how anyone feels, because there is no body language to gauge, no facial expressions to judge, no 'sizing up' if the other guy is serious or just 'funning" with you. Because of it, sometimes people get po'ed and all over misreading what the other guy is trying to get across.

About questions...

Some simply don't know how to ask. Starting a thread that basically says "I need help" and little or nothing else in the subject line tells someone that may have the answer nothing about the question frequently resulting in it getting skipped. Rather dumb practice.

Also asking a question that was just answered yesterday for the 50th time this year does indeed get a bit frustrating to those that answered it over and over again. As does people that cry urgent or other things in the hope to get a quicker response. Hint: There never was or will be any question that could even approach URGENT in this or any forum. If you need urgent help, that means your life is at risk. If so, dial 911.

Should a forum be "friendly"?

Not necessarily. A forum should be judged on the ANSWERS you get, how promptly you get them,and if or not they're accurate. The Sony forums in general are excellent in that regard and for sure are some of the best behaved forums on the web besides. None the less people are still people. Sometimes you get frustrated, annoyed, maybe you're having a bad day or just maybe you give someone a little lip because they claimed they searched for the forum for hours or read the manual cover to cover and you know they're trying to sell a load of BS.
kameronj wrote on 11/5/2003, 6:56 AM
I'm going to have to agree with Billy on this one. I liked the last line he writes regarding users looking for help. In that he says "Sometimes you get frustrated, annoyed, maybe you're having a bad day or just maybe you give someone a little lip because they claimed they searched for the forum for hours or read the manual cover to cover and you know they're trying to sell a load of BS. "

And this is true. Especially when you know someone hasn't done research or even attempted to read the manual.

I too am an experimenter. I like to get a new application and just run with it until I hit a wall. But I have found that most - if not all of my questions have an answer in the manual, on-line help, or archived FAQs or archived posts.

I look to the forum to start finding out stuff that isn't listed in the manual. How to make a program "sing" (as it were). For example on this forum I picked up a suggestion to make make menu transitions into the video presentation.

This "tip" is basically to start your video clip off with a still of the menu and then "fade" into the presentation. Now....you just don't pick up stuff like that in the manual - that's what the forum is for.

Any way you slice it - this is really a good forum. But I don't think that it should take the place of a user's responsibiity to read any/all related documentation to the product.
BillyBoy wrote on 11/5/2003, 9:22 AM
I too think part of the "fun" of getting any new application is seeing what it can do. A good test of any new application is to install it, and then just go into knob twisting mode, just to see what happens.

Spending 15-30-45 minutues or so 'just messing' around almost always gives you a pretty good impression of what the applicaion can do and can't. Then its time to read the manual. I usually just thumb through it quickly first, then maybe a few days later actually start reading it. Cover to cover. Sure it takes time. But time well spent.

Forums such as this are best used to share 'gee-whiz, I didn't know you could do that' kind of information mixed in with the more mundane questions and answers. Otherwise those that have experimented and pushed the applicaion and discovered things NOT covered in the manual may drop out or participate less. Then everyone loses.
dvddude wrote on 11/5/2003, 9:57 AM
I understand exactly what you're saying, and I can relate to it except for the question: "What documentation?"

It makes me wonder if I'm missing something in my package.

I bought Vegas+DVDA. It came with two CDs, and for each program, a "quick tips" tri-fold card and a manual that can't be much more than 20 pages (I don't have them in front of me).

This is hardly sufficient! When I buy Photoshop, I get a book that's over an inch thick! Corel, THREE books that size!

All I'm saying is that desktop video editing and DVD authoring are complex, bleeding-edge subjects that are being marketed to the "average Joe" now... we need better books! Add to that, every application is different; further, every app has bugs.deficiencies (like the nexcusable random hopping around the cursor does in a menu when you arrow down a clean left-align list... it takes a while and a lot of reading to finally realize that you are not missing anything -- DVDA really DOESN'T handle this well at all! I love the program, but this one aspect is awful!)

I AM an avid manual reader; I'm some kind of throwback in that I open a new software box and read the manual cover to cover before I even install it. With Vegas+DVDA, that took about 20 minutes, and as soon as I started working with it, I had a lot of questions that were not answered in the manual (leaflet is more like it).

So, while I agree that people SHOULD read their reference materials, I have to ask -- did you get something in your box that I did not? The AC3 encoder is mentioned only in a LINE or two in MY copy!

Thanks for the reply!
BillyBoy wrote on 11/5/2003, 10:09 AM
Ah... a couple things. The "boxed" version doens't come in a box, neither DVD-A or Vegas. They come in a bag. Maybe that's just if you upgrade from an older version. At least mine did.

Just yesterday I saw a copy of DVD-A in a totally black colored box at a retailer. Lifting it up to judge weight it didn't seem to have anything inside beyond the CD's and the quick start guide.

Oh, the "manuals" are in PDF format. You can download and print them out. The DVD-A manual runs about 60 pages. The Vegas one runs about 360. Scroll up, there's a tab under support that should take you to them if you haven't downloaded yet.
earthrisers wrote on 11/5/2003, 10:53 AM
Often when I buy a new software package, I break out (or print out, as is more often the case these days) the manual and read it "lightly" almost like reading for pleasure. Sometimes I do this while my wife and I are on a road trip (while it's her turn to drive, of course), which rarely fails to annoy her, at least mildly. (She thinks I should be looking at the scenery instead.)
By "pre-skimming" the manual, I get general mental impressions of the stuff that can be done with the Swell New Software, then when I play with the product, I have a sense of what I can do, even if I don't yet know the details -- I know at least that I saw some reference to the task I have in mind, so I have a running start.
And in the case of Vegas, I keep learning wonderful new tricks from this Forum...
rebel44 wrote on 11/5/2003, 11:58 PM
Printing the pdf manual will cost you more that just order printed copy as I did for around $40.Beside manual there are other web site where you can learn more trick and tips.No need to read manual before installing software. Just install it and run and experiment with. You can not hurt it unless you delete it.
Take one small piece of video and do all the "twist" on it. Write down what you learn about particular portion. Share you discovery with other users.
But above all-have a fun.
kameronj wrote on 11/6/2003, 4:50 PM
"But above all-have a fun. "

But what if I wanted to have two funs? Or three??? Can I have those also??

BillyBoy wrote on 11/6/2003, 6:41 PM
I'm filing a formal complaint....

I'm having so much fun with DVD-A and Vegas I get so worked up when I finally do go to bed 2, 3, 4 hours later than I planned I just toss and turn dreaming about what I'm going to do tomorrow and I don't get hardly any sleep. ;-)
Catwell wrote on 11/7/2003, 4:39 PM
When I bought Vegas 4 + DVD, I made printouts of both manuals. I read through them and found that there was a lot I didn't understand. The terminology was new to me. I don't have a background in video production, this was a new path.

Please remember that the manual may not communicate as well to some people as to others. Newcomers will need more help even if they have read the manual. I know what it is to be the expert and be totally frustrated with the incompetance of the uninformed. I still receive Word documents formatted with spaces.

Overall, these forums are some of the best on the internet. Most of the posting are positve and helpful. I think the initial posting in this thread was right on. If a posting is stupid there is no reason to respond. If you can help someone do it without judgement.

I have spent a lot of time on this forum just reading. I have learned a lot without asking questions. I have had very limited luck searching for specific answers because I don't yet know how to frame the question. The proper (or Vegas) terminology is not settled into my head.

Thanks for all the answers to other peoples questions that have slowly brought understanding to this "newbie".
Caruso wrote on 11/16/2003, 1:58 AM
Each can spend his/her 2-cents as they please. My view on forums is that any question - whether asked/answered 10 times yesterday or if covered in depth on the inside cover of the manual or on some truly perplexing problem that no one can immediately solve - is fair on a user forum. IMO, the only questions that are out of bounds are from folks who want to obtain a non-licensed version of the software - everything else should be ok.

Those of you who feel obligated to impress upon the rest of us that we should read the manual should simply not respond to those you feel haven't done their homework. No need to scold or preach at us. The "P" in PC stands for personal - as in each of us uses the machine - AND approaches learning software in a different way.

When someone posts a question, it usually doesn't come with a resume of the posters PC experience. Some folks will have tons of experience, others may be jumping into video without a lot of previous PC skill. Others will fall somewhere in-between. My view, if you can't offer a helpful question, then, simply ignore it - skip the moralizing about what we should or should not be able to learn on our own (using the manual, prior posts, or anyother means). Help if you feel like it, don't help if doing so bothers you.

My 2.

Caruso