ULEAD/SVCD Project. Opinions Please.....

the_ripper wrote on 7/12/2002, 10:49 AM

Currently I am toying with SVCD. So far I cant reproduce the quality of SVCD copy I have for a few movies. The problem could be due to going DVD out through canopus, into my PC, then converting to AVI, then to SVCD. Being I am using the analog canopus converter in the loop, I guess that could be my source of problems. I do however get the same poor SVCD quality from direct DIgital camcorder tapes using firewire. Here is the SVCD data I am getting in the end:

~532 meg SVCD file, about 32 mins for time
Video- 29.97 FPS, 24 bits, 480x480, VBR
Audio- 44100 hz, 16bit stereo, 224 kbps for bitrate.

My question is am I rendering correctly? should I be doing the "make SVCD movie" in ULEAD vs sonic foundry??? I see ULEAD offers more choices, including 720x480, and many others vs SF only has one choice for mpeg2.

Any ideas on getting sharper less pixalated SVCD's? any of you ULEAD users have a favorite choice? I also see multiple choices for the SVCD make disk function in ULEAD. I used the custom version with SVCD checked for both choices. the_ripper

Comments

p_l wrote on 7/12/2002, 2:21 PM

If you encode SVCD in Ulead, there's a little correction you need to make, and then, if you have good-quality source files, you can expect really nice SVCDs.

Their SVCD template is wrong. This is a bug, and it produces a non-compliant file the program itself won't let you author, but here is how to fix it:

1) Open the Video Toolbox
2) Click on the Toolbox Menu Icon in the upper left corner of the screen.
3) Select Template Manager from the list.
4) Create a new template named "Corrected SVCD Template"
5) Under General Tab, be certain frame rate is 29.97 fps and frame size is 480x480.
6) Under Compression Tab, be sure to select MPEG2 (This is where Ulead seems to have screwed up).

Now, when you batch convert, use the new "Corrected SVCD Template" that you just created, and things will work as expected. Ulead will refer to it as XSVCD; just go with it.

Another option could be to encode with TMPGEnc, but the results I've gotten with Ulead, after the above fix, are quite pleasing. Happy SVCDing!

the_ripper wrote on 7/13/2002, 10:49 AM

p_l, did all this and even built one to match my svcd copy I have using field order B, etc,,,But, for some reason it only converts ~100 meg or so to svcd(4min and 42 secs)???? any ideas? The clip looks great, this pisses me off. I was so excited that I hit a new peak in this, now to have it only do ~80 meg! The avi fielsize is 7 gigs, should render about 500 megs of svcd...ULEAD seems to chop all the avis down to 4 mins. When you view clip properties, it says I have 7 gigs of footage(about 30 mins), yet only shows 4 mins in timeline/preview??

What VBR setting are you using? I am using 2460, I would be curious on that anyways. I also use 224kbs on the sound....let me know. the_ripper

p_l wrote on 7/13/2002, 12:14 PM

It sounds like an OpenDML problem. Are you rendering in VF/VV or in Ulead? In VF/VV, under preferences, make sure "Strictly Conform to AVI2 specification" box is NOT checked. Take a look:

http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=97677

the_ripper wrote on 7/13/2002, 5:13 PM

Nope that is not checked in Video Factory....This is odd. All my AVI's only show up as 4 min blocks in ULEAD. In VF they are fine. In ULEAD it even says they are 7 gigs in size, yet only 4min 32 secs show up in the timeline. This goes by both Analog and Digital captured avi's. All my avi's do this in ULEAD. What I did discover is that when I converted the files to AVI2 in canopus converter, it then worked...Any ideas why my capture mode in VF is not making this avi2 compliant version? Again, I dont have that conform to strict avi checked...I must have been capturing all my content with a goofy version of AVI that only the sonic foundry software recognizes. any more ideas come to mind, mainly as to why my avi capture is picky, lmk.recoverting all the avi's in canopus is a hassle. the_ripper

p_l wrote on 7/13/2002, 10:22 PM

Just speculating here, but it seems that Ulead only recognizes AVI2. How VF captures is a question better fielded by someone who knows more about this than I. Well, at least you got it to work by running the files through the Canopus File Converter, which is a lossless process, even if it is an extra step. Let us know how things work out for your SVCDs.

p_l wrote on 7/13/2002, 11:32 PM

Though it might make your head spin, here's a little reading I managed to find on the subject:

AVI DV media: Type-2 DV-AVI files | Type-1 DV-AVI files
AVI media is the original video media format used by Microsoft's Video-for-Windows system and is thus the de facto standard for video files on Windows. Unfortunately, under Microsoft's leadership, there are now two somewhat incompatible types of DV-AVI files. Which type of DV-AVI file your DV/IEEE-1394 capture card uses will largely determine which software you can use to edit and manipulate those files. For a technical description of the schism see Microsoft's document "DV Video Data and AVI Files" (http://www.microsoft.com/hwdev/desinit/dvavi.htm)

Type-2 DV-AVI files:
Type-2 DV-AVI files have been the only type of DV-AVI file until the recent wave of DirectShow-compatible IEEE-1394 cards. Type-2 DV-AVI files are compatible with just about any application that uses the Video-for-Windows media system when an appropriate Video-for-Windows DV codec is installed in your system.
Note: Microsoft does not supply a Video-for-Windows-compatible DV codec with the Video-for-Windows system. But Video-for-Windows DV codecs are included with all of the Video-for-Windows-compatible IEEE-1394 hardware codec or software codec cards. The Adaptec DVSoft software DV codec is also available.
The QuickTime media systems is also compatible with Type-2 DV-AVI files. So applications that only read QuickTime media can read Type-2 DV-AVI files too. Caution: many older Video-for-Windows-based video editing applications do not support creation of DV-AVI files using DV's 32 kHz or 48 kHz audio formats. You may need to use an application like SoundForge XP to convert your clips to use 44.1 kHz audio format before editing.

Type-1 DV-AVI files:
Type-1 DV-AVI files have only recently started to appear. These files are typically created by the recent wave of new, low-cost DirectShow-compatible OHCI-compliant IEEE-1394 PCI cards, CardBus cards and integrated ports. Type-1 DV-AVI files are currently only compatible with applications and IEEE-1394 cards that use the DirectShow media system.
A major advantage of Type-1 DV-AVI files is that they use the modified AVI file specification called "OpenDML". OpenDML was developed by Matrox to remove file length restrictions imposed by the AVI format. Because they implement the OpenDML AVI file format Type-1 DV-AVI files are limited in length only by the file systems used by your operating system. The NTFS file system supported on Windows 2000 can store Type-1 DV-AVI files of almost unlimited length. Unfortunately the FAT32 file system supported on Windows 98 and Windows 2000 only supports files up to 4 GB.
Important Compatibility Warning: Type-1 DV-AVI files are not compatible with software that uses the Video-for-Windows media system nor are they compatible with software that uses the QuickTime media system. Unfortunately this means Type-1 DV-AVI files are not compatible with the vast majority of Windows video applications.

the_ripper wrote on 7/14/2002, 9:29 AM

p_l, great info! I already noticed ULEAD creates larger SVCD file size. instead of 500 megs for 30 mins, I am up to 650. This tells me MORE data and a better quality movie will be there by using ULEAD for the SVCDs. On the output, there are 3 SVCD options, Legacy, SVCD standard, and custom...Which worked best for you in the burn process. I already noticed the custom one produced a disk that would only work in my Daewoo. My Hi-tech pioneer unit did not understand it. BY the way, if anyone wants a cheap DVD player that will play almost ANY disc you give it, try the DAEWOO 5000, 6000. They are weak with lacking optical outputs, but work pretty well with remote hacks galore. Thanks again p_l, LMK on the burn settings if you get a chance. I will let eveyone know what I end up with in movie quality. the_ripper

p_l wrote on 7/14/2002, 11:46 AM

I think I just used "standard."

the_ripper wrote on 7/15/2002, 4:52 PM

P_l, do you know if the video data rate is better at constant or variable? I see the stock one calls for constant, the ones I created are variable data rate at 2460. I am also trying switching the field order around. the_ripper

p_l wrote on 7/15/2002, 6:25 PM

I used Constant and didn't change the field order. I'm guessing "Frame-Based" is progressive. I should give that a try someday, too.

the_ripper wrote on 7/16/2002, 8:30 AM

Thanks p_l....I made a disk last night with constant, kept field order at B. One thing that was really nice was the image slide show I made with music in SVCD. I used sonic foundry's SVCD format for that. I think some of the movie issues I have originate in the SF capture mode. I will have to research this more. I noticed my movie AVI's are a bit blocky and have some jerkyness with action movies. This could be and probabaly is being amplified in the SVCD's I am having issues with. I hope to try S-Vidio instead of RCA to improve capture resolution. the_ripper

p_l wrote on 7/16/2002, 9:06 AM

You said, "The problem could be due to going DVD out through canopus, into my PC, then converting to AVI, then to SVCD." If it's the Canopus ADVC-100 you're referring to, doesn't that convert your analog input directly to AVI?

http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=112129

the_ripper wrote on 7/22/2002, 10:23 AM

P_l, I have been offline, here is the answer to your question....I am going from DVD to the canopus, but remember, DVD players dont have firewire out. It really is RCA jacks in my case which is analog. I am going to try using S-video to see if I get a boost. I did a slide show last week with .jpg's and music and the SVCD looked super. If I can only get my movies like that someday! ALso, I have found no mater what I did in ULEAD, the sonic foundry svcd's seem to look better! The ULEAD versions are more pixelated and jerky with fast motions. The rendering is MUCH faster in Ulead, but the results so far dont seem as good as SF's variation. Thanks again for all your comments. the_ripper

SJH wrote on 7/22/2002, 11:11 PM

You're right -- it is head-spinning stuff. But very well thought out and written. Thanks for the great info.

As with everything in the PC world, too many manufacturers, too many standards, and not enough connectivity between the two. Thank goodness we have JPEG and MPEG; we'd really be in a mess without them.

If I May Digress ...
I'm only two weeks into Video Factory, tackling some five years of raw footage since I bought my Hi-8mm camera. I knew there would be many limitations to doing this at this level -- on this budget -- but am delighted with the results so far. I burned my first couple of V-CDs today and it was thrilling to finally see my work on the screen. Of course, now that I've read about the MPEG-2/Super VCD route, I want to get in on that action. My JVC DVD player supports SVCD, so it's just a matter of springing the extra cash for the SF Plug-In. I hope.

Thanks again for the great post.