usefulness of Cineform in Vegas Pro 11....

mudsmith wrote on 6/1/2012, 6:06 PM
A couple of years back, I saw a lot of posts about the value of using Cineform in early versions of Vegas. Recent posts seem to indicate that HDV (format I am editing in current project) edits fairly easily in Vegas 11, but perhaps AVCHD not so well.......Cineform seems to claim advantages for better color editing and management for both, however, along with some other advantages.

Any thoughts from current users with experience?

If it seems useful, is there a workflow path for me on this project for converting all the media with an hour and a half of clips already on the timeline?

Comments

videoITguy wrote on 6/1/2012, 7:22 PM
The use of the Cineform codec within SonyVegasPro has bit more application when you consider that VegasPro is not only a NLE but it is also a compositor. Hence the effort to strive for using renders during compositing to what is called an intermediate. The goal is to find the codec that is stressed least and capable of holding composites perhaps ranging 4 to 6 layers (i.e., you develop 4 generations of render before your final output.). Cineform answers the call.

There are really many workflows where Cineform may be useful, including immediate capture from source. It is a less stressful codec in the NLE than AVCHD, but not HDV so much. It is not lossless as using uncompressed files would naturally be - but the loss is not noticeable through even mutli-generations.
mudsmith wrote on 6/2/2012, 12:13 PM
Is there a functional workflow for me since I am fairly far into this edit already?....i.e., I have many, many clips of non-converted HDV on the timeline already.

Does Cineform with Vegas provide an intelligible way to convert the media I am using without losing all my timeline references? I have gone through many similar processes for many kinds of workstations before.....even one clip at a time...but I do not want to lose editability for each clip and its source media file.
mudsmith wrote on 6/2/2012, 12:17 PM
Additionally, am I interpreting the info a bout Cineform Neoscene correctly in that it will give me a truly separate (perhaps PCM?) audio track for my HDV footage upon conversion?

This seems like a high value part of the conversion, as well, beyond what seems to be a more manageable color encoding scheme.
MUTTLEY wrote on 6/2/2012, 12:23 PM
If you don't have tons of individual clips as the source media it would be simple enough to convert the old files with Cineform to a new folder, right click on the clip under the project media tab, choose "Replace", and point it to the new clip. Do this for each of them, all the media on the timeline will keep the edits, effects, pan/crop etc.

Of course before you do this save your project under a new name just in case something goes fubar but I've never had an issue.

I don't remember about audio offhand as I primarily used Cineform with Canon 7D files. In that situation I only used the backed in audio to synch with audio from an external audio recorder.

- Ray
Underground Planet
mudsmith wrote on 6/2/2012, 12:33 PM
Thanks. I do sort of have "tons" of media clips, but I could handle this as I already had to do quite a bit of realignment when I brought everything over from the director's computer and an Vegas 7 project. This is certainly doable and worth thinking about now before I get too much deeper in.......and when I have already removed a lot of effects and text in order to get a fresh, clean start.

I will investigate the audio and report back if I decide to go ahead with the Cineform purchase and conversion process.......after, of course, saving.

It seems like I ought to be able to go through the whole process more or less from the poject with the project media window open?

More as I find out more.
videoITguy wrote on 6/2/2012, 1:18 PM
Workflows for a conversion process on the timeline: If you have an edited timeline with HDV footage in place and precisely edited with audio...you would use a plug-in like Vasst Gearshift to switch from the original to an intermediate of your choice and could possibly desiginate Cineform as the intermediate type.

This is a technique creating "proxy" intermediates, they may be useful when you are seeking to composite the created intermediate (level 1) with yet other layers. However, if your only point is to create a proxy - Cineform is not necessary..native Gearshift allows you to create easy proxies in widescreen standard DV for very smooth timeline handling.

This reinforces the point that I made before, Cineform comes into a league of its own, if you are using SonyVegasPro as a compositor.
mudsmith wrote on 6/2/2012, 2:20 PM
So, in other words, all are recommending Cineform conversions not just as a proxy, but as the file to use to go forth to the finished product to whatever my final render may end up being......due to its superior color management and composite handling when compared to either AVCHD or HDV......and it is possible that the VASST software could automate the conversion of my source media with Cineform as the possible format designated.......If not, I should still be able to do it in some form or other using the project media file window, piece by piece.

That being said, is there an advantage to using the more high end Cineform product (GoHD, I think), either at this level, or for the possible future editing of higher res (2k and up) files?
videoITguy wrote on 6/2/2012, 2:49 PM
Cineform markets itself has hi-end industry, so you will need to get them in a conversation about the merits for a prosumer(?). Generally their best products offer non-destructive color-grading to a timeline...which industry speaking, is a significant achievement. It may not be for you. It does cost.

The basic codec when installed can be used to capture from source, convert files one-at-a time, convert files with batching, etc.

Proxy editing which comes with Vasst Gearshift is just a tool to proxy files (whole another topic?), but useful because you can customize the codec that you want the proxy to be edited in.
ushere wrote on 6/2/2012, 6:32 PM
how many generations can you go with hdv and avchd before degradation becomes noticeable (NOT pixel peeking!)?

asking cause generally i use hdv straight on tl and maybe go max two gen. avchd i transcode to mxf, and again, rarely go more than two gen and have never seen any problem.


mudsmith wrote on 6/2/2012, 6:34 PM
FYI, after downloading Cineform Neoscene, I went to the VASST site and they specifically indicated that Gearshift could work as a batch encoder using Cineform.....so I downloaded Gearshift. This may be a bust, however, because it won't load on my VP 11 computer. This may very well be because it does not support VP11....only up to 10. In rereading the site info, they only indicate support through 10, so....

The VASST blurb does indicate that Gearshift will convert HDV to true 4:2:2, which is one of the features of Cineform's encoding as well.....so it does more than just make proxies......and has other kinds of transcoding.

I probably won't know until Monday whether or not Gearshift will work with 11.
videoITguy wrote on 6/2/2012, 6:48 PM
Get a hold of Vasst help and support...they have been trying to keep their installers fresh for each version of SonyVegasPro - but as they will admit readily, they have had a lot of trouble refreshing the website with the latest versions in soffware code. Their current website indicates they have made the installer for Pro11. Only the description of Gearshift (copied from an old website page-limits the discussion to VegasPro10). No doubt, they have it in their code library.

Gearshift is only a TOOL for handling proxies...the website describes using RED4k and Sony YUV4.2.2 codec as proxies providing the codecs you need for this are readily at hand in your OS.
Sony YUV 4.2.2 is an uncompressed codec and a very good one, but large files will be created. It may or may not stress your timeline depending on whether your throughput will be available (like RAID 0).

There has been considerable discsussion in the past on this forum about the ultimate number of generations in render that you can take a codec before artifacts appear. I recall that some discussed using Cineform to the sixth generation (7th would break it.) In my own real-world application I have never had a case where I had to take the Cineform codec to the fourth generation even in the most complex composites. Hence render to third was as good as the first gen and suitable for output on Blu-ray.

mudsmith wrote on 6/2/2012, 7:56 PM
Thanks....I expect VASST will get back to me on Monday.....just as well, since I am going to see my grandkids tomorrow.

Thanks as well for the input on the number of interim renders. I am trying to make interim renders as nonexistent as possible, currently, but am still figuring out the ways to utilize Vegas most efficiently, and understand the workflow used by others.

In the long run, I am slowly pushing toward higher and higher res within the workflow, and putting together a much more powerful computer. Funds (or lack thereof) will probably keep me on this platform through this documentary, however......I think Cineform is going to let us do better color correction, at the very least, and may offer some other benefits on the audio side.

I hope to have all the current HDV files in use converted over by the end of Monday (hopefully with the help of Gearshift), and will report back in with a new thread on Tuesday if I have anything to report.
WillemT wrote on 6/3/2012, 12:00 PM
Have you tried http://sony.vegas.1.free.fr/VP8/Script/Proxy%20Stream%2015e.zipProxy Stream [1.5e][/link], It does all the batch renders I ever needed.

Willem.
Laurence wrote on 6/3/2012, 1:32 PM
What's sad is that I want to use Cineform with Vegas. I want to use their external color correction tools. I want it bad enough that I paid for the version with extra features and have loyally kept it up to date until now. I just can't use it because of the black frame issues. A shame really, regardless of which company's fault it is.
mudsmith wrote on 6/4/2012, 6:27 PM
There is a thread (that now lives not too far down the list from this one) going back a full year about the "black frames" issue. The last entry indicates that the problem is solved, completely, by turning off the Resample option on all video clips going to render.

Since there are no opposing entries to this last response, and this response is from this year, this may be the cure.

Check it out. Report back to the rest of us slobs.
videoITguy wrote on 6/4/2012, 6:46 PM
I have been using Cineform for capture, composite, and intermediates for 3 plus years on an array of 5 editing computers with versions SonyVegasPro 8.0b and VegasPro9.0e. To date I have never experienced a random black frame or a black event render.

That is not to say that there is not a number of users who have a vastly different experience. They not only pop-up on this forum but many other dedicated to user forums. I do not have a stake in the company owning Cineform, but I do know the stakeholders rather well, and I can say with great assurance they do know what is up for the most part. There has been a regular sound-off between blaming Sony and blaming Cineform.

Just one problem, neither community has bothered to invest the time and resources to get to the bottom of why some users have a problem while many Cineform clients do not.

The thread pointed out in the above discussion, is just very typical of a broad-number of complaints but not agreeing in any way to a pragmatic way to reach any conclusions. In-fact, IMHO the users who have pointed out that they recommend to always do a clean re-boot of their platform before pursuing an anticipated long render (with Cineform or any other codec) are probably closer to the correct parameter than anything else I have seen.
riredale wrote on 6/5/2012, 5:43 PM
I recall a few years back when Cineform was first available on the Vegas platform that their (Cineform's) website had a cool demonstration of multiple encodes. I seem to recall that they compared an m2t (HDV) still with a Cineform version, both as 1st generation, then at 5 and 10 generations (or was it 10 and 20 generations?). Blowups of both shots looked identical for the first generation, of course. For the 5th, you could see color bleed and shift for the m2t still while the Cineform version looked same as first generation. For the 10th generation, the m2t was pretty pathetic, with hardly any change for Cineform, maybe a little less color saturation.

In any event, what the demo taught me was that you could do fine with m2t for a couple of generations.

I don't use Cineform in my HDV projects. I bring in the m2t clips and edit them directly for simple stuff, then encode with MainConcept to 720x480 elementary m2v format for authoring to DVD. For more complex work I use GearShift to make widescreen DV proxies, and work with them instead. I can effortlessly edit those proxies even on a simple laptop at a remote location. Then, when the edit is finished, I GearShift back to m2t originals for the MainConcept render to m2v. So I never go beyond one m2t re-encode anyway. I guess I could just encode to Cineform at the outset, but I do like the ease of working with plain ol' DV.