Using Multi-layered TIFF Images in Sony Vegas

Jonathan Neal wrote on 1/11/2007, 1:03 AM
A previous post regarding PSD import inspired this post. This is a concept I am throwing out there. Adding multi-layered TIFF image support to Sony Vegas.

TIFF is a flexible and adaptable file format, and also the most widely supported format across all platforms, including Mac, Windows, Linux, and Unix, with data up to 48 bits supported. Unlike standard JPEG, TIFF files can be edited and resaved without suffering a compression loss. The ability to store image data in a lossless format makes TIFF files a useful method for archiving images.

Importantly, TIFF images may contain multiple layers within a single file through the inclusion of tags in the file header. Sony Vegas already supports TIFF images, but does not currently make use of their multi-layering capabilities. In it's present state, I do not believe that Sony would be forced to pay any extended fees or royalties to include such features, since the TIFF layering is all controlled by the header tags.

I've included a virtual demonstration with pictures which can be read here.

Here, specifically, are two images highlight how multi-layered image support might work.

Right-click dragging a multi-layered TIFF file onto the time line.

Selecting the option "Split Across Tracks", and the result.

Comments

Marco. wrote on 1/11/2007, 1:07 AM
Jonathan, your first link directs me here again.

Marco
Jonathan Neal wrote on 1/11/2007, 1:28 AM
Sorry about that Marco, I forgot to add the hyper link. It has been fixed, try again.
Grazie wrote on 1/11/2007, 1:34 AM
OOoh .. that looks mightily "interesting". You could very well be onto something.

Can somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't I read recently here that TIFFS, although valuable are problematic for Vegas? Didn't somebody have an issue with them - and recently? Their size being too big - something like that?

Anyways, Jonathan, I like the way you are thinking! Maybe we have an option here?



Jonathan Neal wrote on 1/11/2007, 2:28 AM
Grazie, it was reported by Chienworks that Vegas uses Apple QuickTime to handle TIFF images, and that it may be required to have Apple Quicktime (and i mean the free software from apple) installed. Other than that, a search of the forums yielded no additional information, complaints, or other problems. Perhaps someone else can offer us some additional information. I believe we DO have an option here.
Grazie wrote on 1/11/2007, 2:40 AM
Groovvy ! ! !
Chienworks wrote on 1/11/2007, 3:51 AM
TIFF is the format i prefer to use whenever possible, holding off on a save to JPEG as the final delivery version. It's just like doing all your video editing in AVI and then a final render in MPEG. Compressed TIFF files are lossless and they support alpha and layers.

Vegas' handling of TIFF can be slow, but i suspect this is due more to QuickTime than to Vegas itself.
fldave wrote on 1/11/2007, 8:19 AM
Here is one of the threads where tif files were the cause of crashes:

http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=501968

Edited: oh, I read down further and the tif files were not the full cause of the problems.
rmack350 wrote on 1/11/2007, 8:57 AM
Tiff support is provided via Quicktime and it tends to lock up renders. Not a very nice solution and generally one to avoid in Vegas. I'd much rather see multilayer PNG support since Vegas handles PNG swimmingly and it's also a losseless format with an 8-bit alpha channel. I think there's a lot less variation in the wild with PNG, making it much more predictable. You won't have people trying to give you TIFFs from their fax software.

TIFF is venerable and that's both good and bad. Good because it's widely used, bad because it varies so widely.

It's true that TIFFs are commonly used amongst very knowledgeable MAC people, but for every one of those there are another 100 willfully ignorant MAC users who will hand you totally unusable TIFF files. I'll pass.

The factoid about Quicktime being the source of TIFF support makes me wonder about how PSD files are supported. If Quicktime provides the libraries, does it fall on Quicktime to provide the support for layers? This might make it awkward for Vegas unless they just provided the format support directly and skipped QTime.

Rob Mack
Spot|DSE wrote on 1/11/2007, 9:13 AM
The slowness is due to QT, as you indicated. Vegas has to call out to QT, and QT has to respond. It's not a fast process.
rmack350 wrote on 1/11/2007, 9:22 AM
I'm being a bit unfair about multilayered TIFFs. Obviously, if vegas supported multilayered images it should support as many formats as is practical, TIFF being one of them. The most important is PSD files. Even GIMP can open PSD files, I think.

Tiff to jpeg isn't a very apt comparison, but tiff to png is. 32-bit png files are supported across platforms, are lossless, and include an 8-bit alpha. They've been known to include layers but usually don't. As far as I know they don't support higher bit depths but maybe I'm wrong. They don't hang renders like tiffs do, and that's a big factor.

Rob Mack
apit34356 wrote on 1/11/2007, 10:55 AM
Maybe if Sony vegas would handled PSDs, TIFFs and PNGs as special nested vegs on the timeline that would simplify putting it in code. A special vegas edit mode for the nested vegs would permit changes in layers(tracks), FX,.... tho, there are a lot of controls for PS fxs, this would greatly increase easy of PSDs,ie...
Jonathan Neal wrote on 1/11/2007, 12:49 PM
I was concerned over licensing / royalty issues, so I wrote about TIFF.

You could just as easily imagine this feature with a PSD file with this same result, right?

Also, you do folks think this could be a worthy / useful feature?
jrazz wrote on 1/11/2007, 12:52 PM
Yep. I use Fireworks from Adobe/Macromedia and have layered png files (that's its native file) and if png could be used in the same way as what is in your screenshots that would be great Jonathan.

j razz
Jonathan Neal wrote on 1/11/2007, 1:38 PM
Thanks jrazz, so, am I correct in assuming that this functionality could be working with multi-layered PNG, TIFF, and PSD files? apit34356, I'm sure the Madison team has a lot of great features on the way for layers within a track, and I was simply thinking of the most similar / easy way to give Vegas multi-layered imaging support, but that is also a tres interesting idea, and expandable to nested VEGs too!!

I'm going to submit the original concept to http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/support/productsuggestion.asp

Spot, do you know why Sony uses Quicktime to import TIFF files, versus natively? Is there a similar issue with PNG images and / or PSD images?
Tyler.Durden wrote on 1/11/2007, 1:45 PM
FWIW,

The GIMP 2.2.13 for windows can open multilayered images including TIFF and PSD. They can be saved as seperate files, automatically numbered sequentially; each with alpha-channel.

Those files can be dragged into Vegas across tracks, to provide one layer on each track.

GIMP does not create multilayer tiffs, but can create multilayer PSDs, PNGs, TGAs and native XCF files.


GIMP is open source and free. (I prefer it over Photoshop):
http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html

Output of multilayer files to seperate images requires the Gimp Animation Plugin:
ftp://ftp.gimp.org/pub/gimp/plug-ins/v2.2/gap

rmack350 wrote on 1/11/2007, 1:49 PM
PNG is native. I don't know about PSD but I do know that Quicktime can be a handler for PSD files.

The general idea is very good. I prefer inserting them as nested veg files but I don't think the Madison folks really viewed nested veg files as this sort of tool.

If Vegas could do any of it, I'd like all the options. Your three plus the nested veg composition. No reason to choose one over another.

Rob Mack
rmack350 wrote on 1/11/2007, 2:00 PM
My only beef with gimp has been the amount of space the tools eat up on the screen, other than that it's an excellent program.

I wonder what it took for them to be able to parse photoshop layers? Money? Seems unlikely.

Rob Mack
Jonathan Neal wrote on 1/11/2007, 4:01 PM
I agree 100% rmack350, and I'm glad to know that PNG images are handled natively. It would be great to know if the same is true for PSD images.

While submitting my "Product Suggestion" I wrote this example under the form "How would this feature benefit you?":

I could easily bring life to advertisements, banners, photos, or any other still images created in Adobe Photoshop, or whatever your image editor of choice may be. For example, if I had multiple layers of text which list out important features of a product and a telephone phone number on the bottom, I could easily create that all in Photoshop, save it to one file, and then fade out the additional layers of text in Sony Vegas, while the telephone number would remain visible on the bottom of the screen. Very Simple and Highly Effective.
rmack350 wrote on 1/11/2007, 4:55 PM
That's a really good example.

One of the things we do with layered photoshop files is tours of motherboards - about 5-10 per quarter. We draw callouts around components and then bring them up one by one over the picture of the motherboard while describing them in the voiceover.

You could do screens of titles this way too, or thought bubbles, whatever works.

Photoshop files have been getting more complex over time, with paths, vector based text, styles, folders, folder within folders, etc,etc. Seems like quite a moving target to try to extract layers from.

Rob Mack