V4(E) render is 1 absolute frame smaller??

ziggly wrote on 4/26/2005, 4:00 PM

i do not know if this is a known bug,,,or even just maybe something
wrong with my setup and not a bug at all, but....
when i render a .wav file (standard microsoft wave 44.1) and then
bring the render back into the project and line it up at the begining
with the original, when i zoom in at the end, i notice the render
is one absolute frame smaller

my setup win ME
celeron 533
vegas 4 (e) build 239
sound forge 5

does anyone else have this problem?
i used the fourm search option before posting....theres 300+ listings
under render, i read as many as i could before posting.....

i have already found a workaround but i was just wondering
if maybe others have experienced this?

if its truly there and not just something wrong with MY system or a
vegas4 setting, some may not think this is a problem at all...

but i recently brought some files into a friends studio
files that i rendered in vegas...the engineer complained that
the files sounded like they were "drifting" out of time
and vocals that i had recorded (and rendered) in vegas
no longer lined up with the source tracks in my friends studio.
although they all started out perfectly...Hmmm

could someone please offer me some insight,,, i have tried varrious
settings under audio properties
resample quality : preview, good, & best

audio properties :master bus mode stereo
stereo busses 0
sample rate 44,100

i render as Wave (microsoft) (*.wav)
Default template

by the way...would i get better results in v5? v6?
or is it the same? i've been hesitant to upgrade because
i heard so much about routing issues with v5. i was planning
on jumping to v6 but since they banned Red,,,,i dunno.

Comments

ziggly wrote on 12/22/2005, 7:49 PM

OK guys i thought i had this one licked but it turns out my work around .....er, didnt work

Listen plz one and all i NEED your help

i e-mailed Tech support and explained whats basically in the above post
i knew that there was no update or fix for Vegas 4 E in the works (obviously)
so i asked support if i could have version 4B , C , or D to see if i could get better results

i was E-mailed back and they said they (tech support) no longer has version 4B,C,or D
unbeliveable, but there u have it....
if anyone wants to see the E-mail i got from support i will post it

Listen plz can any user here on this Forum provide me with Vegas version 4B,C or D
(i really would like to try out version D to see how well it renders a .wav file)

i am not asking anyone to do anything illegal or immoral...i am a honest Vegas 4 user who upgraded to version 4E and i would just like to try out versions 4(b,c,d) to see if they also render .wav files 1 absolute frame smaller

again for the record i tried tech support now i am appealing to you the members of the Vegas Audio forum

for what its worth
Ziggly

Chienworks wrote on 12/22/2005, 8:11 PM

I've got them all, 4.0, 4.0b, 4.0c, 4.0d, and 4.0e. I could mail a CD to you if you wish. My connection isn't really fast enough to let you download all of them, but i could probably make one available that way if you want.

ziggly wrote on 12/22/2005, 8:49 PM

my email is racebulls@yahoo.com
plz let me talk to you
ziggly

Rikki_B wrote on 1/6/2006, 1:06 PM

This sounds suspiciously like a problem I encountered a while ago, which I posted to this site. I passed several messages back and forth on this forum with the Sony tech guys, and we discussed some possible causes, but we never did figure out exactly what the problem was.

However I was eventually able to figure out a workaround - see the last paragrapph below...

Basically, my problem was that I had recorded basic rhythm tracks in a big studio on a Mac/ProTools HD system, then brought the tracks we recorded in ProTools back to my home studio and recorded overdubs to them on a PC with Vegas.

When playing back the tracks recorded in ProTools along with the overdubs recorded in Vegas, things synced up just fine while listening in Vegas, yet when the tracks were lined up and played back in ProTools, the tracks recorded in Vegas drifted out of time compared to the tracks recorded in ProTools.

Mixing the project in Vegas could have been the easy way out, however, this project was too big to be mixed in Vegas, practically speaking. Too many tracks, plug ins and edits for Vegas to deal with without going into severe convulsions, so the project had to be mixed in ProTools

This proved to be a very big drag - hundreds of overdubbed tracks had been recorded before I discovered the problem, Trying to figure the problem out was a huge headache to say the least - the band got discouraged at the problems we were having (hundreds of hours logged getting "perfect" performaces, only to be nixed at the mixing stage, we were bummed to say the least) and the project was all but abandoned.

Finally, after a year or so passed I finally implemented a very tedious workaround (all tracks - hundreds of them! - which had originally been recorded in ProTools had to be individually rendered again in Vegas on my PC - ugh, what a bore that was) and I was finally able to rescue the project,

Good thing, as we spent several thousand bucks laying down the basic tracks in ProTools, and spent nearly a year doing overdubs at home - all was not lost.

The problem I was having was complicated by the fact that several different versions of Vegas had been used during overdubs, and different soundcards (perhaps an important factor - there are a few slightly different versions of 44.1 out there, depending on the soundcard manufacturer, though Vegas should correct for this), as well as different PCs. And just to keep things interesting for me, the problem did not occur 100% of the time. Oh joy........

I know the Sony tech guys had requested that I try to find out more specific conditions under which this was occuring, and if I were more ambitious, I'm sure I could come up with more pertinent details, maybe even nail down the bug. But, quite frankly, I spent over 2 years on this project, it's finally over (phew - thank god!!!), and now I'm suffering from "shell shock", and I cannot bear even the thought of screwing around with these files any longer to try to figure this out.

Anyway, if you simply re-render, track by track, the original source files in Vegas to 44.1 / 24 bit without making any changes to them (in other words, so that every individual track you will be mixing has been processed in Vegas), you can then open up the Vegas overdubs along with the re-rendered source tracks in the DAW of your choice and the drifting problem should be eliminated.

ziggly wrote on 1/6/2006, 8:16 PM

LOL <--- (not said sarcastically but with tears)…. we did just the opposite
the Engineer told his assistant to reproduce every edit and change I made to the music in digital performer (sigh). I gave what verbal instruction I could but since I don’t know performer I couldn’t man the controls myself …edit by edit the session dragged on and it became a exercise in frustration slash futility

the problem of disproportionate and out of sync renders is due to the sample rate of the audio files I loaded into Vegas4e

44.1 file into a Vegas project set (in the properties menu) to 44.1 and then rendered as 44.1 = a good render

one of my soundcards was set to record at 48hz and when these files mixed in with the rest of the project and then rendered, it caused the aforementioned anomalies.

“And just to keep things interesting for me, the problem did not occur 100% of the time.”

well my problem (which as it turns out is not a bug) I can reproduce. think about it, if you unknowingly import a 48hz file then render as something else then you (or should I say I?) bring it into someone else’ studio it wont quite gel with the source material.

BTW Kelly (chienworks) thank-you kindly for the help…a post at the right time is o’ how refreshing

well…I could it here , but let me say this. the whole experience was a headache. trying to interchange files with a professional studio and me and my home setup running Vegas… but it taught one heck of a lesson : maintaining good relationships is the lifeblood of a project.
Rikki _B you lost in terms of time & money it seems …but far better than the loss of a working relationship

Ziggly
[edit] i forgot to say.... thank-you for your reply Rikki-B and workaround

pwppch wrote on 1/7/2006, 10:50 PM

>>perhaps an important factor - there are a few slightly different versions of 44.1 out there, depending on the soundcard manufacturer, though Vegas should correct for this<<

Ugh! I know your pain. However...

The cards sample rate is out of the control of Vegas. We tell it 44.1, and it is suppose to do this. Very subtle sample rate differences are EXTREMELY difficult to compensate for. Any type of on the fly resampling is bound to lead to more problems that can be imagined and would be totally unacceptable when recording.

Lets say we detect that the audio hardware on your vegas system is actually running at 44.099. When we record that is what we get. We don't know it is not 44.1. However, we detect afterwords that it is wrong. If we resample it up to 44.1, you wouldn't like the results - and it would take a lot of time to do it with a high quality resample.

We could just mark the wave files as 44.099, but my bet is PTools wouldn't read it in, and if it did, it would have to resample as well.

No matter how you look at it, this type of thing is a problem.

The solution? A common - and STABLE clock source. This is a critical toy to have if you move from one system to the next. Everything digital in a studio should be run off a master clock if at all possible. That way the hardware is always slaved to exactly the same clock.

Peter