Peter,

> 2. I have heard of methods talked about in other forums to “trick” a DVD player to read a SVCD file produced from NERO. <

I think someone on "VCD Help" website simply "tricked" the players by using the VCD format, but changed it to actually contain SVCD-quality streams. By masquerading the disk as a VCD the player would "try" to read it, and somehow succeed, whereas if the player thought it was an SVCD to start with, it wouldn't even try. A search on the VCDHelp site might turn up the details.

> ...mine included, which is a Sony. <

Just out of curiosity, what model of Sony is it? I am thinking about checking the VCDHelp DVD Player compatibility list to see what formats your Sony is reported to read.

-- Burton --

Thanks for the input. I have a Sony DVP-500D, which lists compatibility with both a VCD and XVCD (<= 2500kbits/sec). I have been checking the VCDHelp forum regularly without finding any definitive SVCD answers.

Plus, have you had any luck with increasing a VCD resolution to 720x480 (or something other than 352x240)? My video stays "off-center" when played back on the DVD player no matter what settings I adjust.

Peter

FOR NTSC:

Below what are generally "safe" settings.

VCD (MPEG-1) frame size 352x240 bitrate in kbps 391-1280
SVCD (MPEG-2) 480x480 391-2653
DVD (MPEG-2) 720x480 391-9695

FOR PAL:

VCD 352x288 391-1280
SVCD 480x576 391-2653
DVD 720x567 391-9695

OK, here goes a question (or two) on this subject (please be gentle...). I have searched these forums, read through the SOFO mpeg encoding guide, and associated forum posts, and found some answers, but I'm still not satisfied and am confused...

Project: A little ABC video for my two-year old, similar to/plagiarized from the randini vid posted on the Chienworks site (http://www.chienworks.com/media/vidfact/textdisp?randini-abc.txt). Text generated in VV3 using "Combined Effects2" in Text/Backgrounds. Music track is (originally) an .mp3, but converted to a .wav file(44.1KHz, 16 bit stereo) for use in the media pool. I am also composting some stills (.jpg 654x480 resolution) and captured DV clips with the text on a portion of the project. Final output will be to SVCD and/or VHS (for other family members).

Problem 1: The stills have an occasional jittery/pulsating effect when played back on my set-top DVD player (Pioneer 343 - it does play VCD's and SVCD's). Encoded using the MainConcept MPEG encoder within VV (pulsatin not apparant on PC monitor). Burned using Nero. I'm using default SVCD NTSC template with these as the only changes:(1)High Video Quality, (2)VBR (2,500 max, 2,420 avg, 2,300 min). No other changes to template. I've also produced it as an NTSC DV-avi, and encoded with TMPGEnc, with NO jitters/pulses as described. I would rather use VV.

Problem 2: Poor quality audio - Sounds extremely hollow and tinny. When the volume on my TV is turned up at all it gets crackly(?)-almost like it's clipping. The audio settings are template default (44.1 KHz sample rate, 224 Kbps Bitrate). The original music file sounds fine. The audio with TMPGEnc is even worse (I know TMPG does a poor job with audio, even when using tooLame to encode the audio). As a sidebar, I also let Nero encode an .mpg from the DV-avi, and while the sound turned out great, the resulting video was a pixillated mess.

Questions (are you listening BillyBoy, Kkolbo, Cheesehole, JohnMeyer, or Chienworks?): Any suggestions to change tweak the SVCD template (Bitrate ranges?). I read during my search today that increasing DC Coefficient to 10 should help. What will increasing audio sample rate to 48KHz do? Increasing audio Bitrate will (I assume) take away from the video portion, and make it worse? Any others? I fooled around with it late last night (about the only time I get to play with VV), and I was getting punchy and losing track of how I was tweaking the template (by the way, the SOFO guys have my taste in humor - after a change to the template is made, the default description that pops up "Last used template that you didn't save..." )

System: Dell P3-600, 384MB ram, 30GB 7200 rpm system disk, 45GB 7200 rpm media disc (20 GB free), running VV 3.0c (build 138). While running 3.0b, I did have audio synch problems, but then the 3.0c update was posted. No synch problems.

Sorry about long post, and if questions are redundant, but any help is appreciated.

Frenchy

Problem 1
I don't know if it has any effect or not but your bitrate figures are all bunched together within a couple hundreds bits from min to max. I checked out your model over at VCDHelp on their Compatibility List and they claim that 2500 not 2550 should be the maximum bitrate your DVD player can handle. I would either try a constant bitrate or greatly reduce the minimum bitrate. That shouldn't adversely effect overall quality if you stay with a variable bitrate. I didn't really follow it, there were a couple threads recently with a fix for jitters when adding still images. Maybe if you ask that directly you may get some responses.

Problem 2
How does the audio souud when played back on your PC? Again, I haven't see this problem myself, everytime I had a audio problem it turned out I got a little carried away tweaking a filter or over clipping and I fixed it prior to rendering.

>Can the VCD bit rate settings be changed in the VV3A template?

Yes. Make sure you are using the latest version of VV, as 3.0a had a bug which caused a memory leak/crash when using non-standard settings. This was fixed in 3.0b. Otherwise, you can make the bitrates as high as your player can handle.

Frenchy,

Since 3.0C, I have not had any audio sync problems. As far as settings, I have been using the following for both VCD and SVCD with much success:

352x480
2500-2600 CBR
DC Coefficient set to 10 (SVCD)
Audio @ 48KHz
Burn with NERO

While neither is supposedly “NTSC” compliant, they are both valid for any future DVD authoring and play well in my RCA DVD machine. Plus, 352x480 is not as CPU intensive either while rendering as some of the other resolutions. I have also read that the creators of Mpeg 1/Mpeg2 suggest that 352x480 @ 2MBits is considered one of mpeg’s sweet spots. But, I have upped the bitrate slightly for better quality. Increasing the DC coefficient has helped me with high motion scenes and negated most jittery/pulsating effects. I avoid using VBR for the simple reason as most of my work involves output less than 20 minutes, so I look towards the highest quality with file size of less importance.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the replies and suggestions - I'll give them a try this weekend. I am satisfied with the overall video quality of the SVCD (especially compared to VHS tapes, and I'm not quite $$ ready to invest in a DVD recorder, along with another system upgrade...). Since this particular project is only a few minutes long, I will try a CBR at the max of 2500 (I saw the same reference at VCDhelp.com). Question, though - doesn't the lower horizontal (352 vs. 480) resolution give you a "squashed" image when played back on set top DVD player, or does the player compensate in playback like it does with the 480x480? It sounds like increasing the DC coefficient to 10 may solve the jittery/pulsating effects I am trying to get rid of.

BillyBoy:
I haven't played the CD on my PC yet. I am satisfied with the audio on the PC when played from the mpeg file. It's just when played back on the set top player that it gets sounding tinny. I also found some info on this issue at vcdhelp.com, but alas, it involves using TMPG and another "sampling frequency converter" called SSRC.

I'm still very curious about the sampling rate/frequency in general. I'll continue my search around web. Any opinions/experience with changing the bitrate ??

Thanks again

Frenchy

"doesn't the lower horizontal (352 vs. 480) resolution give you a "squashed" image"

The DVD player compensates for the resolution size. However, if played on a PC type media player, it will look a little odd shaped. As far as constant bitrates, I have gone as high as 4K with VCD and 6K with SVCD (keeping the resolution at 352x480). The higher numbers provide greater "quality," but may not play on every DVD player. Check @ vcdhelp.com for player compatibility.

I have tried various other higher resolutions (720x480, 704x480, etc.). Remember, bitrate and resolution go hand-in-hand, so you need to find a logical middle ground for your particular needs. The higher the resolution, the higher the bitrate needed to maintain quality. For me, future conversion to DVD was essential, so I picked a compatible solution and a bitrate that most players can handle.

Thanks seanybear - Upon re-reading, I realize I wasn't very clear, but in the final sentence of my last post, I was referring to changing the the *audio* bitrate from the default 224Kbps to something higher (256,320,384). Same with the *audio* sampling rate/frequency settings (44.1KHz vs 48KHz). I did find something on another SF forum, and although I have an *intellectual* understanding, I'm still struggling with the practical application and what I should use and when and why...

Peter,

The following is quoted from the book, "TechTV Guide to Creating Digital Video Like a Pro" by Deras Flynn, Que, 2002, 486 pp + CDROM, $24.99

<begin quote>

"Creating XVCDs and XSVCDs. The X in XVCD or XSVCD denotes the video you are creating exceeds the specs of the VCD or SVCD format. For instance, the VCD spec calls for video to be sized at 352x240, the SVCD spec calls for video to be 480x480, and XVCD or XSVCD is sized at 720x480, which matches the original dimensions of DV video. By avoiding resizing you maintain higher video quality. The bit rate of XVCDs or XSVCDs is also higher, but usually not exceeding 2.6Mbps including both video and audio bit rates (although some players, like the very affordable Daewoo 5000N play back XSVCDs up to 6 Mbps!). Most players that play back SVCD will play back XVCD and XSVCD. Again, check the VCDhelp DVD database for compatible players.

If you have a player that supports XVCD and XSVCD playback, I can highly recommend using Nero to burn your XVCD or XSVCD files. Nero will issue you a warning that the file does not meet the SVCD spec--assuming you're burning a SVCD--but it will allow you to ignore the warning."

<end quote>

It sounds like your Sony DVD player may be borderline for bit rate. Based on what Flynn said, if I were you I would first try to make an XVCD sized at 720x480, while trying to keep the bit rate in bounds for your Sony player.

-- Burton --

In reviewing a comparison between SVCD and DVD, we can see that the audio standards can indeed vary somewhat. I have found the current audio settings in Vegas to be quite satisfactory for my use. The only settings that I have altered are for video resolution and the audio sampling rate (44.1 to 48).

(X) SVCD NTSC
Video:
any kbit/sec MPEG-2 both variable and constant bitrate
352 x 240 pixels
352 x 480 pixels
720 x 480 pixels
29,97 frames/second
(23,976 frames/second NTSC Film)
with up to 4 Subtitles
Audio:
32-384 kbit/sec MPEG-1 Layer2
with up to 2 Audio Tracks
Extra:
Menus and chapters
Still pictures in 704x480, 352x240

DVD NTSC
Video:
up to 9,8 Mbit/sec MPEG-2 or MPEG-1
720 x 480 pixels
352 x 240 pixels (VCD Standard)
352 x 480 pixels
29,97 frames/second
23,976 frames/second (NTSC Film)

Audio:
Dolby Digital, DTS, PCM (uncompressed audio), MPEG-1 Layer2 but one track must either have DD or PCM Audio.

Per VV3, their DVD template uses an audio bitrate of 224 kbps and a sample rate of 48kHz. Since I am trying to create DVD compliant videos, I have never varied from this setting. So, cannot offer any advise on this question. If you find a better audio "quality" seeting that fits into these parameters, please let us know.

Thanks

Thanks for the replies/help. I *finally* got it produced to my satisfaction using most of the default NTSC SVCD settings with the following changes:

Res=352x480 (the std. 480x480 works well also, but like you say, not DVD-compliant)
CBR=2,500 (file size no issue here, and the VBR setting seemed to cause my "pulsating" problem)
DC=10
"Write Sequence display extension"=checked
Audio Sampling rate=44.1KHz or 48KHz seems to make little or no difference, but 48KHz is DVD-compliant

The video looks great, and is in perfect synch with audio, which *is* better, but still a little tinny and hollow sounding. If anyone can shed a little light on this aspect, it would be appreciated. Otherwise, I'll play with the settings, and move on to another project. Thanks again all.

Frenchy

Frenchy,

In a previous post you mentioned that you converted the audio fle from mp3 to wav. I'm not an expert, but I have used mp3 files, without converting to wav, in Vegas projects with no ill effects.

As someone else asked, does the audio problem occur playing on PC or just with the settop DVD player and TV?

The problem only occurs on the set-top player - sounds ok when played on PC. Commercial DVD's sound fine on set-top. I converted to a wav because I had read on an earlier thread that mp3's placed directly on the VV timeline had caused problems with synch and had random clicks and pops in the rendered video. I recall reading recently that release 3.0c (build 138) no longer has this problem - I suppose I will try the mp3 on the timeline in my ongoing quest...