Vegas 5 Bad Edit Points

ECB wrote on 3/22/2005, 8:06 AM

This is an example of a V5 bad edit point. http://ecbaldwin.home.mindspring.com Note the horizontal resolution is 1 frame and quantize by frame is 'on'. I expanded the track layers so the bad edit was easier to see. The frame actual extends over the frame boundary even though quantize is on. Occasionally, as shown in the example, an event less than 1 frame in length is created. The bad edit points do not occur with every edit but it is a major pain. When a bad edit point is created it can cause bad edit points at other events. Bad edit points have been verified by others but I can't seem to get Sony's attention. The video is NTSC DV video.

The type of video capture I do causes the response of the automatic exposure control of the camera to lag the brightness change at the beginning of scene resulting in one or two over exposed frames per sequence (no time for preroll). I have to go in and edit out the over exposed frames (~120 edits per 15 minute of video). I get lots of bad edit points. You can't see the fractional frames in the finished product but if you run any scripts that depend on the boundaries between events you have to clean out the bad edit points if you want the scripts to run properly. I am surprised other folks have not be complaining about the problem.

~eb

Comments

Liam_Vegas wrote on 3/22/2005, 8:39 AM

I haven't seen this problem... otherwise I would have been complaining. I notice you are in A/B editing mode. That's not a mode I normally hang out in... so perhaps that is part of a contributing factor to your findings that would be a little different.

ECB wrote on 3/22/2005, 9:15 AM

I switched to A/B Editing just to show it more clearly. I do not edit in A/B mode.

I will try anything that can help solve this problem.

I loaded the unedited NTSC DV avi and saved it as an uncompressed NTSC DV. Loaded the uncompressed DV file into V5. Split and trimmed ~ 10 edit points. 3 of the edit points were bad. The NTSC DV is captured from a Sony TRV950 which uses the Sony DV codec. I get the same results with Video captured with a Canopus ADVC 100 which uses the Canopus codec. I have tried the Mainconcept codec and uncompressed with the same results. This problem has been reproduced Tom Baldwin and a similiar problem by Roy Refrano on the Sony Scripting Forum. The problem does not occur at every edit point and a bad edit point can casue other good edit points to become bad edit points. I have seen bad edit point where the fractional frame is so small it does not effect the script programs that detect event boundries. The size of the frational frame seems cumulative with the number of bad edit points. I have seen bad edit points with events created with an event that are less that 1 frame in length.

It is very easy to detect bad edit points. Load a video on the timeline and split it into 10 events. Got to the beginning and end of each event and trim off 2 frames on the timeline. Start at the beginning, or end of the video, and using the Ctr+alt+ left or right arrow key (depending on the direction you are going) move from edit point to edit point. It should take you one click to get by each edit point. Those edit points that require 2 or more clicks to get by are bad edit points. On the bad edit points you can sometimes grab the the edge of the edit and drag the fractional frame back and clear the bad edit point or reedit it. I have trimmed an event and watch a fade disappear on two events away.

Ed

Liam_Vegas wrote on 3/22/2005, 9:41 AM

Thanks for that extra explaination... it makes it very clear now... I wonder why I have not noticed this behavior. I'll give what you describe a try,

Orcatek wrote on 3/22/2005, 9:51 AM

OK, I did it. I recreated your issue. Only occurred once in the 10 splits.

I did not notice until after I shortened them and then dragged them together. In AB mode the arrow for the cut mark would not show up when I dragged them to meet (remove the space created by trimming off the ends).

Very strange indeed.

Edit: I now have a VEG file with nothing but generated media that has the problem.

rmack350 wrote on 3/22/2005, 10:25 AM

Well, some things I've seen that seem related to this are:

Captured DV Video/Audio streams may be of different length, with the audio being longer or shorter.

Several of the Vegas Generated media types seem to default to lengths that don't add up to whole frames in NTSC.

By default, still image durations don't add up to whole frames in NTSC.

So I'm assuming that if one is dropping footage onto the timeline that is not a whole number of frames in length, and the stuff is snapping to each other, then it's pretty likely that most of your footage will end up not falling on a frame line.

Some of this ought to be controllable. If you select footage in the trimmer and then add it to the timeline, I would think it'll be a whole number of frames in length. And if you set the default still image duration in prefs to a proper length (5.005 secs, for example), that ought to help as well. But generated media... that you probably need to watch out for on a case by case basis.

Some of the trouble with things being not a whole number of frames in length seems to stem from things that are just dropped raw onto the timeline

ECB wrote on 3/22/2005, 10:51 AM

I am working with video only stream. Here is an example of what see on what I call a bad edit point. First I scan to find bad edit points using the ctrl + alt + arrow keys until I find one that takes more than one click to pass. Here is what I see. First, when I trimmed the events I always trimmed the first 2 frames off the left edge of the event but I what I find is a frational frame on the right edge of the previous event (I only trim the right edge edge ) which I did not trim. I only trimmed the left edge of events. Why is the right end of the previous event have a fractional fram extending over the frame line???? If I click on the right edge of the frame on the previous event and drag it left or edge trim it I can usually corrects the bad edit point. But I repeat, I never edited the right edge of any event only the left edge.

Ed

ECB wrote on 3/22/2005, 11:12 AM

You can download Bad-Edit-Point.veg and Bad-Edit-Sliver.veg and substutute you own video file that demonstates the bad edit point. Bad-Edit-Sliver demonstrates a worse case where an event less tha 1 frame is created. http://ecbaldwin.home.mindspring.com/

Ed

Liam_Vegas wrote on 3/22/2005, 11:40 AM

Have not had time to dowload the Vegs... but doesn't this problem strike you as being a possible reason for the oft reported but (until know maybe) difficult to reproduce "flash-frame" problem?

ECB wrote on 3/22/2005, 12:41 PM

The problem is auto-ripple! If I turn auto-ripple off and use Ultimate-S or Excalibur to eliminate to gaps the bad edit points are gone..gone...gone!! I have run the test many many times and the bad edit points are gone! Sony needs to take a look at auto-ripple.
Ed

Liam_Vegas wrote on 3/22/2005, 12:44 PM

This makes it sound even more likely then that it is the flash-frame problem.

ECB wrote on 3/23/2005, 3:41 AM

I read the "flash frame" threads and flash frame also sounds like an auto-ripple problem.

winrockpost wrote on 3/23/2005, 2:16 PM

Indeed sounds like the phantom flash frames, I get them on almost every project that has a lot ( 10 or more)of tracks & cuts . I never ,ever use auto ripple, but I do use post edit ripple.Hmmm.

ECB wrote on 3/23/2005, 7:42 PM

If I use post edit ripple I also get bad edit points. If I use Ultimate S or Excalibur to remove the gaps I have not had any bad edit edit points.

johnmeyer wrote on 3/23/2005, 10:01 PM

Please send this in to Sony as a bug report (use the link at the top of this page). I would LOVE to have them finally fix all these roundoff error problems that cause small gaps, flash frames, blank frames, etc.

ECB wrote on 3/24/2005, 5:41 AM

I have sent Sony a bug report.

I am surprised there has not been more reports of this problem. Perhaps my application is uncommon. I start with a NTSC video track and a single event ~30 minutes in length. I splt the single event into ~300 individual events which I edge trim the first 2 frames from the left edge of each event. I find the bad edit points by jumping from edit point to edit point using the ctrl + alt +arrow keys and noting which edit points require more than one key click to pass. Then I try to fix them. It is like pushing on a bubble under a carpet. You may fix one and several other good edit points become bad edit points. I have watched a fade out disappear on 2 events away from the one I was editing. In some cases I could not save the edits and had to start from scratch. If I had not been able to use Ultimate-S or Excaibur to ripple the edits I would have gone screaming off into the night.

One more item. I have used the veg file with bad edit points to open other video files and I find the same bad points on the new video...not surprising. It seems that all the information needed to see what is going on is in the data in the veg file. Unfortunately, Sony is the only one with a utility to make the veg file man readable.

Ed

ECB wrote on 4/6/2005, 11:38 AM

Good news! This following is the response from Sony Technical Support:

"The cause of the issue is known and it will be addressed in a future release of Vegas. I don't have any kind of time frame to give you, but the issue will be fixed".

Ed

Orcatek wrote on 4/6/2005, 12:04 PM

I hope that means 6.0 and not 6.0b etc.

ECB wrote on 5/20/2005, 1:08 PM

The problem was solved in 6.0b. :)

Ed B

ECB wrote on 9/6/2005, 3:47 PM

Started new thread.