"...Any extra cost would simply get passed on to the consumer and I certainly don't feel like paying anymore..."

In an "expansion pack" option, you wouldn't need to pay for it. If you dont want it, dont buy it.

For others that are complaining of not having enough AVCHD options, we could choose to pay for the support as a seperate add-on product..

CT

SCS,...fix the Cineform issue ASAP!

Right... so we could be just like Pinnacle Studio where people are bitching and complaining about studio being in the area of $600 by the time you're finished purchasing all the little "extras".

I could easily see you being at the head of that complaint line too.

Codec licensing is indeed complex, a trip over to MPEGLA will give you some insight into the problems. They act as a clearing house for licensing all the various parties IP bound up in the various MPEG technologies. Last time I checked they can only issue licences for mpeg-4 that cover consummer applications. At a reasonable guess one way the consummer level is defined is by the bitrate.

You'll probably find that there are already codec packages on offer to give you what you want. Whether or not they'll work with Vegas could be a show stopper though. If there's none that do then your suggestion of SCS putting a package together is a very good one. Those who need it pay for it. This is pretty much the norm for all NLE's. We paid $2,500 for one codec licence which is quite a bargain for what it does. The average user of what it plugs into would not need it and it'd therefore be daft for the cost of it to be included in the host product.

Bob.

"...Right... so we could be just like Pinnacle Studio where people are bitching and complaining about studio being in the area of $600 by the time you're finished purchasing all the little "extras"..."

Blink,..you dont get it. The theory is Vegas would have the same limited AVCHD encoding options that it does today...no extra cost.

Get it? Nobody can complain or "bitch". SCS is not giving them something and then taking it away. (like the current Cineform problem....grrrrr)

Full AVCHD support has never been part of the Vegas8/9 price structure. (unlike the current Cineform problem)

Dude,...what is your fixation about "complaining" about "complainers"? (You always complain that people complain too much around here.)

Bottom line,...dont need it?,...stay with the current support codec "templates".

Vegas need to keep up with their competetors in the list of supported codecs.

CT

(SCS,...fix the Cineform problem ASAP)

Well. Cliff.... that's because most of you complainers are NEVER satisfied... and it's ALWAYS somebody else's fault.

I have very little patience or sympathy for this kind of person. They sit on their ass and say "woe-is me", but then don't bother to do anything about it. This world is far too full of this kind of crap. You got a problem.... okay fine... deal with it. Look for a solution. Get up off your ass and fix it yourself instead of sitting there blaming the rest of the world. Is it irritating purchasing something that doesn't quite live up to your expectations? Sure it is, but that doesn't mean YOU haven't the ability to do something about it yourself.

"Full AVCHD support has never been part of the Vegas8/9 price structure."
Can you edit native avchd in Edius? How about FCP? Does Canon put out a NLE? Does Panasonic?

Sony thus far has made a choice and that choice is for them to stick with consumer level avchd... live with it or maybe try CS4. I hear people are having LOTS of fun with CS4 ;)

Maybe you should be more patient, with people who use Vegas in a different manner than you use it.

complaining "can" lead to fantastic things. This country was born from "complaint"

Y'know,...I dont like to think of it as "complaining" anyway. I see it as "urged-improvement". The desire for progress.

Where would the light bulb be today if people in that time just said: "Candles and oil lamps are FINE...we dont see a need for something better!" Every advancement in society started because people were not complacent with what currently exised.

You are right,...we here will always want more and more and more. We want Vegas to get better and better everyday. (it's a never ending process)

As far as my expansion pack idea; I think it might good business model that pays for itself. How many people her would love to have the ability for greatly expanded AVCHD options? (I know you dont, but I bet many other valuable Vegas users do)

CT : - )

SCS....PLEASE fix the Cineform issue ASAP! (my current complaint!...and dont tell me to fix it myself Blink...lol)

"Maybe you should be more patient, with people who use Vegas in a different manner than you use it."
I had crashing issues with Vegas rendering avchd. I solved my problems with some work and experimentation.

I'm not unique. Anybody can do this.

"complaining "can" lead to fantastic things. This country was born from "complaint""

Complaining Cliff solves nothing. Most of the time complainers don't even get taken seriously. Now there IS a way to complain and be taken seriously at the same time. It's called constructive criticism.

"this is a great program but I just have this issue with...... what if we did it this way"


Which one do you think is going to get you further Cliff? Which method do you figure will do little more than piss people off? You right off the bat accuse Sony of trying to save money on some sort of avchd/ac3 scheme.

SCS....PLEASE fix the Cineform issue ASAP! (my current complaint!...and dont tell me to fix it myself Blink...lol)
I do find it interesting how you keep saying this. Have you bothered to ask the WRITER of the program to fix anything? Have you bothered to ask the WRITER of the software to upgrade so that it works?

"this is a great program but I just have this issue with...... what if we did it this way"
or
"This program stinks! What is Sony thinking? Why don't they....."

Gotcha,...good idea. "Stratigically worded" complaints. I'll make sure to prefix "I LOVE Vegas dearly but,...." before I explain any issues I have with it. Good one, Blink


"You right off the bat accuse Sony of trying to save money on some sort of avchd/ac3 scheme."

Why are you trying to call it an SCS "scheme"? I think you are dead wrong on that. I suspect that SCS is riding on the liscense that the "Big-Sony" has already paid for. Where is the "scheme" in that?

On Cineform. If SCS released a future Vegas 10 and suddenly didn't support AVCHD. You would say,

"Cliff,...AVCHD codec belongs to the Motion Picture Experts Group,...you really need to go complain to MPEG....AVCHD is not an SCS product"

Dude, it was in an older version of Vegas,..we can't go backwards like that. Hell,..OK even if SCS said we no longer give it out for free (like we used to)...at least make and avenue for a paid Cineform codec to work....duh?

Oh,..I'm sorry.

"Guys,..I truely DO love Vegas with all my heart but can you please take a look at the Cineform thing...thank you,..I love you."

There Blink,...constructive criticism!....lol

CT

Hi Blink

I actually had crashing issues with AVCHD rendering on vegas platinum then upgraded to pro on trial and it went away however I'm having all kinds of issues getting my video to play back smoothly on the PS3. Basically it's very jerky.

Can you eloborate furtther on the crash issues you had and what work / experimentation you did to resolve it?

Cheers

Matt

"On Cineform. If SCS released a future Vegas 10 and suddenly didn't support AVCHD. You would say,"Cliff,...AVCHD codec belongs to the Motion Picture Experts Group,...you really need to go complain to MPEG....AVCHD is not an SCS product"

That's a really bad example Cliff. AVCHD isn't 3rd party software while cineform is. All 3rd party vendors have had to update because of this.... Excalibur, Ultimate S..... etc. Cineform is no different. I don't hear Ed Troxel (excalibur) screaming and yelling on how he had to update his installer. In fact I don't hear any yelling and screaming at all with regard to Excalibur. Why? well because Ed was on the ball that's why. He had an update out almost immediately. Ultimate S and the boys over at vasst were pretty quick too. They had an update out inside of a week. These boys will never receive a pat on the back for being so fast (although they very much deserve it) No, instead what we're going to hear is how scs screwed cineform because Ed troxel and the vasst boys were so fast that their change over was so seamless..... it wasn't even noticed.

I keep waking up to these upgrades thinking one day my Debugmode plugin pac will no longer work.... and one day it will actually happen (but not yet) and when it does.... I'll surely feel it. But the fact of the matter is that one must keep up with change.... otherwise you get left behind.

"Can you eloborate furtther on the crash issues you had and what work / experimentation you did to resolve it?"

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=648152

Cliff,
empty vassals make the most noise.
Find the "Ignore This User" button to make your source of annoyance disappear in the blink of an eye.

Bob.

I agree bob... much less of a head ache for me too.

I just read this thread, and its veered way off,

But Cliff, I agree, that would be a great expansion pack. I don't need it, so I wouldn't have to pay for it. No problem.

There is already ways to do this with Vegas, DVCProHD need Raylight. Great plugin, I bought it, I use it, no problem. If you don't need it, don't buy it, and you save some money.

kairosmatt

[I]Ignore This User[/i]

I wish I could find it but...

Looking back at Cliff's initial post it isn't such a bad idea as an option BUT I'd suggest that it is probably something that a third party software company might be more inclined to develop.

As Blink points out Sony don't see AVCHD as a format they support beyond the consumer level. I think I wrote something similar in a previous thread.

Vegas is in the unique category of being a Video (and Audio) editing program produced by an arm of a company, Sony, that also produces a full range of hardware... cameras, decks etc. It's little wonder that they tailor the program to the specifications of the equipment they produce. Adding in support for formats such as RED isn't a surprise either because it fits in the 'Pro' category and doesn't directly compete with Sony products.

That being said there are plenty of Vegas users that have cameras produced by other manufacturers and supporting codecs like AVCHD at higher data rates than the Sony consumer range.... I'm one of them owning a Panasonic HMC-152EN and I'd love to see Vegas support it fully.

If it doesn't make good business sense for SCS to do that, then perhaps it does to a third party developer. There are already plenty of them offering compatible plug-ins for video FX and codec conversion, like Raylight.

This would mean those Vegas users who are happy with Vegas 'out of the box' only need to pay for what it can do but other users would have the option of purchasing the third party plug-ins that add the functionality they need, including enhanced native AVCHD support without the need to convert to DVCProHD.

New Hope Media

"If it doesn't make good business sense for SCS to do that, then perhaps it does to a third party developer. "

And that's the whole point. It doesn't make sense for Sony to shoot its own self in the foot.

AVCHD is pretty much the De facto codec for consumer delivery these days. Weather it be on Blu Ray or just file download. (with the possible acception of WMV or Vc1)

What else is there? MPEG2? (ok,..maybe "Flash" too)

I love having "options", even if it means I need to pay extra for them.

Speaking of RED? Dang,...I really wonder how many of use shoot with that baby. Did Sony pay anything for that support?..lol...did WE all pay for that in Vegas 9? I would tend to suspect that less than 1% of us will ever edit that stuff.

If I had to guess, I'd say maybe 60% of us here are AVCHD/HDV editors.

CT

"Dang,...I really wonder how many of use shoot with that baby."

You would be VERY suprised. There's probably more RED cameras in this city than EX1 and EX3s. Speaking to one guy from a rental company in LA at NAB they're cheaper to rent than an EX1 too. Lenses not included of course :)

Cost of providing that support is probably next to nothing. As far as I know Red has made it free, no licensing involved. Same goes for OpenEXR and DPX. The only cost is in development, nothing per copy sold.

On the other hand SCS pay a licencing fee for every copy of Vegas sold to Dolby, Fraunhoffer, Cineform and Main Concept who in turn would have to be paying MPEGLA. SCS cannot give away 3rd parties IP, it is that simple. It is not the cost of developing the interface that would hit ALL of us, it's the cost of licensing. I have no interest in AVCHD personally and yet I gladly pay the licensing cost of whatever it is the rest of the Vegas users do get. I might not be so happy if Vegas cost another $500 per license just to keep the rest of the user base happy. On the other hand I really wish Vegas would work with Prospect4K. I'd pay the licence for that. No way in the world do I expect every other Vegas user to pay the extra $1,500 that costs though.

This is exactly the same as After Effects. What's it cost, say $1,000. Add up every desirable plugin and codec you can buy for that and you could very easily spend $10,000 on it. Many of them are much the same as what you get with AE, for free. Only difference is they work in 32bpc float. The film guys want this and they pay the extra toll for that. Joe Average AE user is NOT going to pay $10,000 for that package, no way Adobe could sell it.

Same holds true on the audio side of Vegas. How many here would buy Vegas if it included the Waves Platinum bundle at an extra $10K? The few who want that buy it for themselves.

Bob.

Bob, excellent point.

Looks like SCS really wants to nudge Vegas further into the high end market now.

As far as codec support, I think it's critical that Vegas keep up or exceed what Premiere is doing at all times.

Adobe is a powerfull company with allot of $$$ and influence. (and a longer list of 3rd party supporters) Adobe also doesnt make cameras so they dont have to deal with "competition" and politics behind that.

Speaking of Sony politics,..If Sony Camcorder Division is reaching out so far to the Final Cut Pro crowd,...than SCS should be allowed to reach out to the Panasonic P2 crowd....seems to be a double standard from the Sony big wigs.

About the "expansion pack" idea. 3rd party support for plugins and codecs is not as plentiful as Premiere,...so,...that it even more critical that SCS be that "3rd party" to get that "extras" out there.

I just downloaded teh Premiere CS4 Demo so I'm going to play with that for a bit and compare Vegas 9 specs and CS4 together.

AVCHD support will be important to me in my evaluation. I do use Cineform too,... so let's see if CS4 works with that. (I got a funny feeling that it will....I seriously doubt Adobe&Cineform would ever allow a new release to suffer a big "supprise" like that.)

CT

How many here would buy Vegas if it included the Waves Platinum bundle at an extra $10K? The few who want that buy it for themselves.

Bob

My point exactly. Let's hope there is a third party developer who sees a benefit in developing an AVCHD enhancement for Vegas.... anyone at VAAST interested?

I'm the sort of user that sees the benefit in adding specific plug-ins where needed, so I do own a range of Waves plug-ins, along with Izotope's RX and Ozone 3 & 4 plus Red Giant's Looks which all run in Vegas. In addition I have others that are ProTools specific and so on.

I choose to buy them because they are relevant to my work, I don't expect that every user wants them though. Hence they shouldn't have to pay for them in the basic Vegas package.

If there was a third party AVCHD enhancement for Vegas I'd certainly consider buying it along with Vegas 9.

At the moment I'm avoiding Vegas for my AVCHD editing and, although I've previously upgraded at each new release of Vegas since Vegas 4, I don't have any plans to buy Vegas 9 because of the posts on this forum about it's performance with high data rate AVCHD.... one of the reasons I read this thread in the first place, looking for good news, though not currently finding it.

That doesn't mean I've stopped using the software completely. It does mean that I'm spending my time using other editing platforms for HD editing.

So the downside of Sony only supporting AVCHD in Vegas to the specifications of its own hardware is that it is alienating an existing user base, with non-Sony hardware, and forcing them away from Vegas.

It doesn't make me want to run back and buy a Sony camera. The 152EN was a purely 'dollars in the budget' decision which I'm not regretting, so I guess the answer will either be a third party enhancement or continuing to use other NLEs for me.

New Hope Media