Thanks John...

I have read several people who have said exactly what you've just said. I don't plan to work with anyone, to be honest, and therefore don't see myself ever abandoning Vegas. It's simply too great of a product to even consider that. What's interesting is that I have spent about 2-3 hours per day for the last...say, 6 weeks...working with Vegas. It's just fun! I have always wanted to work with digital videos and NLEs, and Vegas gives me that opportunity. But I recently bought the Digital Video and Audio book from SCS, and am really enjoying it. When I first got it I remember thinking that after watching Gary's videos, I maybe wouldn't pick up that much stuff from the book. HA!

Wrong.

I am constantly finding little tidbits that I had no idea about. It's amazing.

So the purpose of this thread was simply to find out what all the FCP buzz is about; at least the "buzz" I seem to find on other forums. Everyone's trying to compare "X" NLE to either Avid or FCP. And since I have never seen FCP besides what people post on YouTube, I thought I'd ask here.

I think I'll probably end up getting a G5 and maybe try to get FCP to work with--at least then I can say that I know how to work with two NLEs.

Thanks again John.

TB

They kind of do the same thing (FCP and Vegas).

FCP's and Vegas's interfaces are very different... e.g. everything is backwards compared to Vegas (and vice versa). In Vegas, you do the edit and then you ripple. In FCP, you select the right tool with the right ripple behaviour, then you do the edit.
Pan/crop is backwards in Vegas comapred to FCP. (I find FCP more intuitive here... but they'll both do the same moves.)

In terms of features, they more or less do the same thing. If you want fancy graphics (and motion stabilization and all that Jazz), use something like After Effects. Vegas has audio tools built in. The 'integration' between FCP and soundtrack is a little annoying since it has to render out entire audio files into Soundtrack before you can work on it.

FCP has its own quirks compared to Vegas. Nesting is not intuitive (some nests are a copy of the original; they aren't linked), big sequences won't fly (work with a number of smaller ones), and there are other random bugs (like phantom timecode breaks).

Personally I'd spend some time learning After Effects (or a somewhat similar program... maybe Combustion, Motion, or Shake). It's very powerful.

Like mentioned prior, Vegas is great if you're working with other Vegas users or working from start to finish on a Vegas project by yourself. As soon as you need to integrate with post houses that use FCP / Avid, then it can be a bit of a challenge.

Vegas is designed to be an all-in-one finishing tool. Start to finish, you can do it all in Vegas. FCP, Avid and now more so Adobe are designed to work with other toolsets within and out of their suites. This is a traditional "Hollywood" post-production workflow where you have your audio guys, compositors, colorists and editors all working on elements of the final piece. Complicated if you're a one man band? Can be but lots do it.

There are pros and cons to both systems. I've worked in Vegas longer and feel more confident editing in it, but I'm also fluent in FCP if I need to work with local FCP houses. Do I prefer one over the other. Not necessarily as each becomes a tool in a toolbox designed to help me make my living. If you're going to be working more with other editors who are using FCP or another NLE, it may behoove you to work the same system they're on. If you're doing everything solo, Vegas rox.

cheno

Great stuff...totally agree, from the standpoint of my limited experience.

I found http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=535578&Replies=42this thread[/link] mentioned on another forum, actually. I had searched the forum archives, but didn't hit that one. But there are some very good comments in that thread.

I can foresee a day when (hopefully) I might be able to share some workload on some projects with some local editors. These guys are using FCP, for the most part, and that's what is driving my desire to learn more about the product. But although I have owned a G4 Powerbook in the past, I don't currently own any Mac product. So that's an issue as well. But you can do pretty well on a a late-model G5 on ebay; or I suppose I can always replace my current Windows laptop with a Macbook Pro, and just run FCP that way. At least it would be a functional machine capable of running either FCP or Vegas. Obviously it wouldn't be something you'd edit on for any length of time...not in the studio anyways. But it would get me pointed in the desired direction, as it's certainly going to take some time to get fluent in FCP.

And of course a person can never have *too much* knowledge of Vegas.

TB

Any tips on cooperating project involving both Vegas and FCP/FCS? Like if multiple tracks of media have been aligned in a Vegas project can they be EDL'd to FC (e.g. for someone to continue working on them there) or is there a script or something? I know Vegas can (via script) export more than one kind of EDL.

I don't know about that at all, but I am sure someone else here will. But I have found another http://forums.digitalmedianet.com/cgi-bin/readwholethread.fcgi?forum=sonic-foundry_vegas&post=061109084632.htm&toppostid=48316#1 reference[/link] that's very good. The fellow Mike J from down under has some great comments, and gave me a whole new perspective on the whole NLE business.

TB

I work on Macs for lots of stuff and with FCP often. Everytime I have to use Final Cut, after about 10 minutes, I want to put my fist through the screen as I find the interface and workflow frustratingly byzantine. I often render out portions of projects started by clients in Final Cut and then import them in to Vegas to finish. It's like a breath of fresh air going to Vegas. Vegas has limits, but fewer than Final Cut as far as I can see. Doing audio in FCP is like drilling teeth....
Scripting is basically a gift from heaven in my world...there are things I can do in Vegas in 5 seconds with one script that would take me an hour or more in FCP.
Things I dislike about Vegas > no timeline to DVD or Flash export, a few other things, but far, far fewer complaints than I have with FCP

Interesting comments...

One thing I've noticed is that most of these "FCP vs Vegas" threads are a couple years old, and the complaints about Vegas (what few there are, lol) not having X or Y functionality like FCP simply may not be valid anymore. In other words, SCS may have already addressed many of these perceived shortcomings with Vegas 7/8.

For example, one thing I have seen cited as a shortcoming is the lack of a good titler; something that (in 2005/6 anyway) FCP apparently had over Vegas back then. But now with the Pro Titler in version 8, I don't think that these same folks might make this comment any longer. Vegas 8 is the first version I've ever used, so I guess I take this stuff for granted maybe; but the point is that SCS seems to have paid attention and has corrected these perceived shortcomings with more recent versions. Of course FCP has almost certainly evolved as well but the point is that, at least in terms of the general flavor of most of those comments on the other forums, Vegas is pretty highly regarded by many experienced editors.

TB

It's a Vegas *and* FCP thread.
...toutes les deux ensemble

I just read this http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/adobe/story/workflow_fllexibility_through_final_cut_pro/Here[/link] about Adobe software being able to import FCP files. It'd be nice if Sony enabled import/export of a file format that would be able to be imported/exported with FCP:
"An update to Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 (4.01) opens the door to even greater workflow flexibility by making it possible to open any Final Cut Pro project in Adobe Premiere Pro and by adding OMF export and enhanced AAF support. Importing Final Cut Pro files is easy: export them using the xml interchange format, then open the file in Adobe Premiere Pro CS4. Popular media types, including DV, HDV, DVCPro HD, and ProRes 4:2:2, transfer seamlessly, and commonly used effects and transitions are preserved. Once you’ve opened the file, you can use Dynamic Link for render-free workflows throughout Production Premium, whether you plan to enhance footage in After Effects or create DVDs, Blu-ray Discs, and web-based DVDs in Encore."

i use them both...i just felt like i needed to learn fcp a couple years ago...fcp and premiere are similar to a degree...i like fcp but i've been using vegas from the beginning multi-track audio days so vegas is my comfort zone...no nle is perfect and all have their pros and cons but vegas is so many less steps...and most know vegas on the audio side of things is brilliant...now livetype is another story...i love livetype...

I'm a light hobbyist. LIGHT LIGHT LIGHTWEIGHT--I want to make that clear--so I am not pretending to be fluent in either of these apps. But I'll give my perspective anyway. ;-)

I started out on Final Cut Express. It was a little difficult to figure out at first, but soon it started to fall into place and I found the interface reasonably intuitive.

I was playing around with Vegas around the same time, and found the interface completely incomprehensible, and still find parts of it non-intuitive. But I firmly believe this is more about "what you're used to" than one app's superiority over the other. Plenty of people claim that Vegas is so easy and they immediately loved it. (But plenty of people say the opposite. That's how it goes.)

I have since purchased Vegas Pro 8 and Final Cut Studio 1. (Will be getting FCS 2 eventually.) Yep, I prefer Final Cut. In part because I'm used to it, but also because I find things like pan/zoom easier with Final Cut. I like the color correction filters MUCH better with Final Cut. (Again, it's what you're used to.) I am crazy for Compressor and LiveType. I don't think that Vegas 8's titler is anything compared to LiveType. LiveType wins hands down.

In some of these threads I've noticed comments about how the Mac users are so blinded, so partisan, and (in one of these threads--not sure if it was this one or another that was linked to here) that we're not technically savvy. (To this I can only give a hearty laugh.) Well, in my little universe, surrounded by other light users (we're all strictly in amateur category), there are a lot of Vegas users who treat it as if it is *the* only NLE out there; they are True Believers--Vegas is *IT* man, Vegas is *IT*. I don't witness this sort of wild-eyed zeal from fellow Final Cut users. Also, in my little universe (populated with light users), I'm one of the more technically savvy. Yes, a Mac user. A Mac user who wants to understand other video programs, so I actually go out and buy them and use them.

Well, I like Vegas, and I'm happy to own my own copy so I have something to work on when I'm in Windows. I'll happily recommend it to other Windows users. But I am far from being a Vegas True Believer, that's for sure.

To sum it up, I think both applications are very good. My opinion would be, if you have Windows already and you like it, get Vegas or get Premiere. If you have a Mac, then you will do fabulously with Final Cut. If you are interested in switching to Mac, go for it. You've got a lot of fantastic video editing tools at your disposal.

It never hurts to know more than one NLE, especially if you think you may want to look for a job somewhere someday.

If you are just one guy who wants to do everything by himself, Vegas is a far superior product. It's not even close when you consider Vegas' audio capabilities.

I don't witness this sort of wild-eyed zeal from fellow Final Cut users.
Then you've never heard them talk about Avid. ;)

"Vegas is a far superior product. It's not even close when you consider Vegas' audio capabilities."

I doubt I'll ever get to that point, to be honest. I also doubt I'll ever get a job editing. I don't think I have that level of talent. (Unless you're talking really humble local stuff, in which case probably Final Cut Express would be more than enough.)

And even though I like some things about Vegas, I wouldn't want to use it exclusively. That would mean giving up LiveType, and that's just not going to happen. ;-)

I'm sure when you punch the right buttons, you can get a lot of people to exhibit wild-eyed zeal. LOL. Speaking from my own observations, there are plenty of people in that category in the Vegas camp.

As for me, I enjoy learning new NLEs, so I'm excited to be learning Vegas. I wouldn't recommend a hobbyist (such as myself) to switch platforms to use Final Cut, unless they were already interested in doing that anyway, or if they felt they could get more work that way. As for me, I just fiddle around with little projects on my own for fun, so I have the luxury of using what I enjoy the most. I'm glad that I am a Mac user because to me, Final Cut is a lot of fun to use and was (for me) easier to learn. But . . . one more time! . . . I really think that a lot of it boils down to what you're used to.

I've been a Vegas user for a couple of years but today I bought a new Mac Pro, two 23" Apple Displays and the Final Cut Pro Studio 2 Suite. I have friends (here in Hollywood) who are doing color correcting & color grading with Apple Color and I can't wait to get my hands on it. I also found that there are a ton of amazing plugins for video editing apps but there is very little support for Vegas by these manufacturers. Vegas is a great app and I won't give it up completely but I am looking for more in an app then Vegas currently offers.

Just been on an FCP course because will be starting to use FCP soon because that's the working standard. Most people on the course were there for that reason e.g. they were ex-BBC people who (or whose assistants) used Avid before. An assistant said they had heard good things about Vegas. Unsurprisingly, I found FCP clunkier in some ways and more helpful in others. My expectation of Apple Elegance was a little shot.

Would be nice to be able to retain Vegas in conjunction with FCP. That would help "spread the word" also. Of course one can always exchange rendered media via Cineform etc. but that would be limiting. It would be nice to be able to make greater continued use of the investment.

I will post some geekier questions & suggestions on the Scripting forum.