For me, it's about the application choice, not the OS choice. I want Vegas and Sound Forge and DVDA and ACID and ... well, lots of other software that i use regularly every day, enjoy using, and get paid to enjoy using. Almost all of that software is Windows only. So, i run the OS that supports the software i use. It's a no-brainer.

So, if you're really dedicated to the Sony Media Software line, you should investigate what is going to be necessary to make that best work for you. I'll guarantee that does not include the MacOS.

Not sure that you'll appreciate hearing this, but Windows XP is about as trouble-free an OS as i've ever seen. It's JPW* compliant.






*Just Plain Works

But I can't just stick around on what I've come to understand is a faulty operating system for it. I'm done having to reformat my computer, customize the crap out of everything, then get an error message because something was turned off that shouldn't have been, etc.

and then, after a few used of using osx, you'll see it's no different in regards to issues you'll have with windows. every mac user i know has said that within a few months. they would just rather stick with it some times vs sticking with windows.

Whoops! Accidentally created a new topic. Sorry!

Anyway, XP is great, yeah. But it's not going to be around forever. Vista is the future, then Windows 7. As long as Windows keeps building onto the old infrastructure, it's just going to keep getting more and more piggish.

I used to be in the camp of sticking with your apps, choosing that over the OS. But, I can't stay on an old OS forever. And yeah, it's not that old yet, but until Windows makes some major changes, I don't have any confidence that things will get better. I shouldn't have to buy a massively powerful machine just to have a good experience.

I don't understand the whole "I hope Apple never touches Sony". C'mon. Adobe is on both platforms, and it seems to work out alright for them.

Sheesh.

I switched to a MacPro last spring.
Both the hardware and Mac OS X are absolutely impressive and years ahead of Windows Vista.
You won't believe how smooth an operating system experience can be.
Meanwhile I also got a ancient iMac G4 (700 MHz) - just for the fun of it.
Even this 7 year old machine runs circles around my wife's lastest generation Vista laptop!

I am feeling much like you are:: I LOVE Vegas Video's workflow.
So I have a dual boot setup with Vista Ultimate 64 on my MacPro.
Fortunately, Vista runs on the Mac with no more problems than on any other machine...
But for anything else I'm now strictly using OS X.
If only Sony released a Mac version of Vegas

I'm also a recent Mac convert. I switched in December. I use Bootcamp so I can keep using Sony Vegas on the iMac (don't try Parallels because it doesn't support Firewire). I'm growing very fond of my iMac... I love how quiet and fast it is. My PC sometimes gets so loud I can't hear myself think when it's running.

Anyway, Vegas runs very nicely on the iMac (24" 2.86 4-gig RAM)... except for one thing: You can't print to tape from it. It works fine from the Mac OS (Leopard) in FCP and iMovie, but it doesn't work from the Windows side. It "sees" the camera and captures just fine. It even turns the camera on and starts recording when you hit PTT, but no video or audio goes through. It makes me nuts. What I've had to do is render stuff as a .mov file, import it into FInal Cut, then print to tape from there.

I've also noticed I can't do an external preview via a Firewire pass-through. That's nuts.

I've been on every forum in the universe looking for an answer. Apple support says "Sorry, we don't support Windows applications." Sony says "Sorry, Vegas isn't intended to be run on a Mac." I tried to explain to them it's running in WINDOWS (XP Pro), but my comment fell on deaf ears. Windows just says "We don't know nothing about no Apples." It's very frustrating.

The interesting thing is my friend has a two year old iMac running Tiger, not Leopard, and Vegas and Premiere Pro print to tape just fine on his machine.

I'd be wise for Sony to spend some time thinking ahead on this. I'm sure there are many, many people switching to Mac now that it has an Intel processor and can run Windows. But what do I know?

I will admit that I've been spending more time in Final Cut than I thought I would. I still prefer Vegas, for a lot of reasons. But that PTT and Firewire pass-through to an external monitor quirk is bothersome.

"I don't understand the whole "I hope Apple never touches Sony"."

Agreed on that one. We're not talking about Sony selling the product line to Apple. We're talking about Sony keeping the product and *also* developing a Mac version.

What Apple did to Logic was an absolute scandal. The monopolies commission should have forced them to develop the Windows version. It was a fiendish piece of software to learn in those days (it may still be) and destruction of the PC line effectively meant that many people had to move to Apple platforms against their will or face learning a a whole new system.

I think that was one of the reasons that Microsoft cited for their discontinuation of Internet Explorer on the platform, as well as the sporadic attention they give to Mac Office.

I'm going to be getting a new laptop here pretty soon.... and I'm pretty sure I'm going with a Macbook.

I've done a bit of work on a Mac but don't use FCP for my business. I'm thinking it's time to get on the FCP bandwagon. I'm NOT going to "dump" Vegas, It's the one piece of software I'm actually kind of fond of but there is no denying that FCP/Apple is becoming the NLE standard. I'm also a bit concerned about the development of Windows and Vegas over the next few years. I'm still using 7d mostly because 8.0 has a few bugs that I don't feel like dealing with. I'm also still on XP. A bit reluctant to make the move to Vista since it looks like it's going to be abandoned for Windows 7, which by all accounts seems like a pretty good OS. It's going to have to be out for at least a year for me to make the move though because of drivers/bugs/etc...

The other plus is you can run Windows on a Mac. There are a few gotchas but it works pretty good. I think Vegas will continue to be a very viable NLE but I don't think it is going to be developed beyond it's pro-sumer roots. This isn't a bad thing but I fear I may be outgrowing it for some projects.

Just my 02

I know what you mean by "outgrowing" Vegas for some projects. I want to shoot a multi-million dollar film in a few years utilizing the RED, and I will pretty much have to use FCP for that.

What Apple did to Logic was an absolute scandal.

According to my co-worker, several thousand users agreed with you, voiced their opinions on several boards and were ignored :-(
The main reason he didn't switch was because a lot of his hardware wouldn't work on a Mac.
As I said, he's now quite happy with Sonar.

On a side note, didn't DVD Studio Pro start out as a PC app - until Steve Jobs took it over, that is?

Mike

I just recently installed the beta for Windows 7 x64, and from what I've seen, Windows 7 is a step in the right direction. I think it will be more stable and faster than Vista. Most of my drivers intended for Vista x64 install in the Windows 7 beta. Makes me think that developers won't have as hard a time making stable drivers for it as they seem to have had for Vista. A friend at Electronic Arts uses the Windows 7 beta as his primary development OS already.

My iPhone has Apple software and it crashes. :) I wouldn't expect computing nirvana in Apple world. Are there less problems, maybe... also less software and more expensive hardware.

Vegas is worth hanging around for in the evil world of Microsoft. :) FCP can take a hike. :p

this is very interesting.... i had thought about getting a mac, along with fcp just to test some long term projects - with the main proviso being i'd still be able to run vegas under bootcamp or whatever. however, i talked with a few of my old mates who are still in the main game, and listened to what they had to say.

from their perspective those who've used vegas (and quite a number do at home for their own projects) is that it's fantastic, but useless in their work environments for all the usual reasons, the main being it's non-collaborative, and not well geared to serious film and broadcast work, etc.,

fine by me, i don't collaborate any more (thank goodness!), and, in my limited experience with fcp, vegas is by far simpler and faster than fcp for 'general' work.

i then started looking at mac's, and yes, their prices have dropped, but they're still relatively expensive, and with i7 coming along i still doubt i could buy as much bang for my buck as i could with pc.

then there's the much touted win7 on the horizon. not much point discussing a yet to be released os, but it does look like m$ might get this one right - after all, it's certainly getting a very public beta testing.

so, i'll be very happy to hear from those of you who do go with mac's as to your experiences with both os and fcp vs win / pc.

i'm not interested in the usual os / pc / nle wars - i just want to know from 'professional' editors their honest opinions as to whether the grass is greener or not.

leslie

i just want to know from 'professional' editors their honest opinions as to whether the grass is greener or not.

I love Vegas and still use it for some of my audio work, however I've moved from DV(CAM) production to AVCHD and find the Vegas implementation is less than perfect so for video editing these days I primarily use FCP. I bought a MacPro initially to run Vegas, because the alternatives, HP and Dell, were actually dearer for server level CPUs.

I then decided to get FCP because I could run it. You know "Why does a dog......? Because he can!"

Initially I felt it wasn't as intuitive as Vegas and still probably feel that, however it does fit in with the professional software I use, and collaborate with, in broadcast television.

Can I produce as polished a product with Vegas as I can with FCP, certainly!!
Does FCP have benefits over Vegas, YES in some functions but Vegas does better in others.. so it depends on what your editing needs might be.

Does FCP work in a professional environment where audio is post produced in a separate audio suite running other software?... YES.
Does Vegas offer the same functions?... well not successfully or without 3rd part software like EDL Convert and then it still has problems... Clunky AAF implementation and the absence of broadcast wave output not being the least.

If I were staying in SD DV editing, possibly even HDV, Vegas would suit my editing needs for corporate video production. However it doesn't work for me at all with AVCHD. FCP certainly does, even if it means transcoding the files into Apple ProRes on import and chewing up significantly more hard drive space.

I also run ProTools for audio and, in the professional arena, it has the ability to integrate with NLE's like AVID and FCP in ways that Vegas doesn't attempt. I'd love it to do non-realtime renders and burn audio CDs but that's where I go back to Vegas.

As far as the OS is concerned FCP (or more correctly Final Cut Studio) and Mac OSX are integrated... meaning easy access to iPhoto libraries and iTunes from within applications like Motion and DVD Studio.

Are any of these programs, Vegas, FCP ProTools etc perfect?... not by a long shot which is why I use ALL of them for their particular strengths and integrate them on projects where I need to as I integrate and use both Windows and Mac operating systems and applications beyond video and audio.

New Hope Media

Amen to that, newhope.

Some people think that Final Cut is getting a bit long in the tooth after 2 years without a new version.

They apparently forget that it has been on a 2-year cycle, 2003->2005->2007->ummm, 2009, so there should be a new version this year (whether spring or fall, nobody knows).

The new-customer adaptation of Final Cut is greater than ever, and even more so on the Avid side.

There is a major shaking out in NLEs right now, and it's possible that on the high end pro side the only survivors will be Apple and Adobe.

Between those two, the third party support for FCP is the envy of the industry, and Adobe has some work left to do to make PP work better with AE in complex projects (where the much touted linking falls apart).

And Vegas Pro could own the lone eagle ("does everything from edit to sound to finish") pro and semipro segment if Sony has the will.

Btw, last week there were rumors that a major NLE announcement was going to be made yesterday.

Did anyone see or hear anything?

No worries, Mike. Vegas (and Acid) would both be severely crippled due to what Apple forces. We've looked at programming for Apple and it's ridiculous.
Vegas' agnostic, software based platform would severely hurt if forced to convert everything, slow the process, and force people to have XXX hardware to run.
I love my Mac, love Motion, and use Final Cut when forced to. We all know how fast we can cut in Vegas; No way, no how can FCP match that. If speed isn't your need (and it isn't for everybody) and sexy interface is your style, then FCP is a wonderful choice. Motion is an incredible tool. Compressor blows. DVDSP is great, but most of what we need can be accomplished in DVDA, and DVDSP can't do DDP files to disc, so dual layer authoring is a PITA. AE? Works faster on the PC side of my MBP. And works with almost anything I throw at it.
Either way...I was a Logic user til Apple bought it. Now, I'm exclusively using Sonar. Logic got seriously broken, *and* they dropped PC support. Same thing with India Pro Titler. It ran fast, small, and smooth on a PC. As LiveType, it had issues.

"...didn't DVD Studio Pro start out as a PC app...?

For that matter, FCP started as a PC app!

My wish is a boot camp equivalent for the PC so I could run OSX on my laptop. I'm cutting a job on FCP right now but could be working more efficiently in Vegas. Alas, this job requires playing well with others which our beloved Vegas does not do.

je@on

Vegas (and Acid) would both be severely crippled due to what Apple forces. We've looked at programming for Apple and it's ridiculous.

Converting an application that is totally wrapped around the 1990s Microsoft media APIs, and totally written as a very closely Windows-optimized application, to the Unix structure of OS X and its very different OS support for video and audio functionality, that would indeed be a severe amount of work.

Vegas' agnostic, software based platform would severely hurt if forced to convert everything, slow the process, and force people to have XXX hardware to run.

It could be made dual platform like Avid Media Composer or Adobe Premiere Pro, and this would be the only way to not "force people to have XXX hardware to run."

Compressor blows.

Well, it is a bit clunky to use. But the quality it is capable of is very high in skilled hands. Just look at recent comparisons (on DMN I think?) where in several key encoding categories Compressor had better output quality than expensive standalone encoders such as Sorenson Squeeze Pro ($599.00) and Telestream Episode Pro ($895.00-$995.00)

DVDSP is great, but most of what we need can be accomplished in DVDA.

For basic needs, DVDA is indeed easier. For DVDs with advanced menus and programming, only DVDSP can do the job. More Hollywood studio DVDs are created with DVDSP than with any other tool.

AE? Works faster on the PC side of my MBP.

True for a small benchmark, because the AE code has not been fully Intel-optimized yet (unless it happened in CS4?). But somehow I don't notice that (I run AE on both PC and Mac), possibly because AE Mac alone can use large amounts of RAM effectively (this may have been fixed in AE CS4 Win).

Logic got seriously broken

How? I don't use it, but recent versions have gotten top reviews from pro magazines.

India Pro Titler. It ran fast, small, and smooth on a PC. As LiveType, it had issues.

It still has issues, but it still allows you to do titles in minutes that would take hard labor without it.

Code purpose-written for OS X, and using the Core, Quartz, FxPlug, etc. functionality, is a lot cleaner than any Windows equivalent at this time. Maybe Windows 7 will introduce new interfaces and functionality, so application programmers don't need to do all the work themselves.

FCP has antique code, but it just plain works for so much that is not supported by most other NLEs.
Especially related to filmmaking.

With Vegas we get the ability to work really fast, as long as we are working with formats supported and we don't need to collaborate with outside people.

I suspect it will be around forever, no matter who owns it. It's just plain enjoyable.

Here's another "shocker:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10187569-64.html

Intel was preparing to announce 8 core systems during the first week in April and Apple already scooped them, announcing Mac Pro systems with the same new Xeon core i7 CPUs. Is Intel asleep at the wheel or what?

"Is Intel asleep at the wheel or what?"

What difference does it make? It's still going to be Intel selling the processors no matter who announces it.

>>Both the hardware and Mac OS X are absolutely impressive and years ahead of Windows Vista.
You won't believe how smooth an operating system experience can be.<<<

How much smoother can it be than no crashes on 3 machines in 3-4 years? with windows XP. Nobody's forcing you to use Vista. MS is not Apple, you have choices.

Let's cut the crap. I have had to use OSX and older mac oS in the past. It's crap. Bottom line is that it does not run most of the serious apps, and is just as crash prone as any windows version other than XP.
XP is better than OSX when it comes to stability, no ifs, buts or whatever about it.

How much smoother can it be than no crashes on 3 machines in 3-4 years? with windows XP. Nobody's forcing you to use Vista. MS is not Apple, you have choices.

The choice to use an obsolesced version of Windows isn't there for those who buy new machines, but Vista works OK for professional use, as users are more focused on their work and can put up with a little bit of pain from the UAC, etc. clunkiness.

I have had to use OSX and older mac oS in the past. It's crap. Bottom line is that it does not run most of the serious apps, and is just as crash prone as any windows version other than XP.

Which apps would that be? You mean your #1 favorite app isn't available for OS X? That's OK, the people who do the work at levels from loners to team hounds in major studios and broadcast post shops somehow make do with the pro apps that are available for OS X, as well as the apps that are only available for OS X.

OS 9 was definitely crash prone (especially because it didn't have pre-emptive multi-tasking).

But now you're talking back in a previous century, ye olde 20th century. Why is that important to you? Are you a historian?

OS X 10.1 was about as stable as early versions of Windows XP. How quickly we forget...

Today's OS X is definitely as stable as today's Windows XP, which went from being a buggy monster that couldn't even handle Firewire correctly to a rock solid "It Finally Just Works" OS fairly recently.

And OS X doesn't need Windows' frequent virus, worm, and system scans to avoid collapse. That's saving me some blood pressure.

jabloomf1230 wrote:
Here's another "shocker:

news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10187569-64.html

Intel was preparing to announce 8 core systems during the first week in April and Apple already scooped them, announcing Mac Pro systems with the same new Xeon core i7 CPUs. Is Intel asleep at the wheel or what?
_____________________________________________________

I got the apple e-newsletter yesterday announcing these.
Looks like they changed the pricing points and configuration options a bit to compensate for the monster pricing on the Nehalem CPUs.