I know about the Vegas and downsampled HDCAM goodies. That relies on using say JH3 to capture DV proxies. Except the XDCAM records a low res mpeg-4 stream, potentialy this could be edited in Vegas, the 'EDL' loaded into XPRI and conformed there.

But this is nothing like the publicity that surrounded the Cheryl Crow story now is it, the spin put on things there was it was all Vegas, no mention of XPRI.

What bugs me is I know a couple of people who went to this event because they were interested in using Vegas. From what I'm hearing Sony are being very short sighted, they didn't go to decide between Vegas and XPRI, they went to decide between PP and Vegas in one case and others were there to decide between FCP and Vegas.

I'd imagine that Sony's thinking is if you can spring for a XDCAM then you can afford to edit on a XPRI. Problem I see with that logic is you've got to sell two new things. Also there'd be plenty of people who could afford to hire an XDCAM but mostly people prefer to edit on their own systems. If an offline edit could be done in Vegas and that taken into XPRI then great, they should be pushing Vegas as part of the solution. We'd perhaps give serious thought to XDCAM but not if it means entering two lots of uncharted waters, XDCAM AND XPRI!
Perhaps, just maybe, Sony have painted themselves into a corner, they've got a high end system that they've poured heaps of R&D into and at the same time they've got this pipsqueak system they fear could eat into the market for their high end gear. Personally I don't think this is the case but it wouldn't be the first time the market has taken that view of Sony. Whether it's true or not isn't the issue, it's what the market percieves that matters.

Bob.

Just found this topic. This is bugging me as I'm looking at getting the PDW-510P

Sony said that they don't support this camera. Is this totally true? I mean the 510P is only DVCAM, not MPEG IMX. Is there any way that the DVCAM footage from this camera can be taken into Vegas like any other camera? What would be the point of having a firewire connection on this camera if footage couldn't be transferred with it directly?

XDCAM has two flavors right now: DVCAM and IMX MPEG. If you shot on either, you can plug into either of the decks using 1394 and pull DVCAM into Vegas for editing- works great. Once editing is finished you can spit out an EDL or, better, finish inside Vegas. I have the PDW1500 deck, very nice, media is about the price of tape.

In the future (I won't promise what or when) Vegas will offer more extensive support for XDCAM, beyond DVCAM/1394. XDCAM is a very cool initiative and we're definitely behind it. Treating both capture and print-back as a file transfer- we like that. Stay tuned.

Okay. But the remortgaging of the house only extends to me getting the camera itself. Can I stream DVCAM from the cameras built in 1394 interface into Vegas?

I have only used the deck but I'll check this out for you. Which camera are you considering- the 510?

Excellent, I would appreciate that very much if you could.

Yes, it was the 510 that I was considering.

So even if we shot on IMX MPEG we still have to import the DV25 stream?
I'm certain the camera takes pretty decent looking DV25 but what about editing the IMX files?
OK, so we could edit the DV25 as proxies but what to then use to edit the IMX in 4:2:2?
I'm thinking seriously about an XPRI but still having trouble joining the dots.
Without giving too much away I'm looking to provide a service to local Vegas users so they can output to both DigiBeta and HDCAM, depending on what they shot with. Yes I know we're looking at a serious investment, that's not an issue. What is an issue is making certain we can connect all the dots.
I'm told all of this is possible, export Vegas project as XML, fine how to do that?
I should be in the US for NAB and would be prepared to travel further afield to actually see this in action. I think Mads over at the XPRI forum has an open invite to come see XPRI in action but it's the integration between Vegas and XPRI that I'm interested in, we cannot expect those on tight budgets to afford tying up an XPRI for long periods, however offlining either XDCAM or HDV in Vegas and then finishing in XPRI sounds very attractive. Even shifting DV25 to XPRI for finishing and output to DB would seem to offer a worthwhile quality boost.

Bob.

What you have suggested sounds pretty interesting. Although as you say those on tight budgets (such as myself) cannot afford to have the use of XPRI for any length of time.

At the moment all I really need is the DVCAM stream, so hopefully SonyEPM will come back here with some good news shortly.

Just to chip into the thread..

It seems there is a prime role for Vegas in the XPRI suite for AUDIO, and the reduced video is called "reference video" (to manage the audio).

If that's the strategy does it seem likely to enable the use of Vegas like a satellite controller for XPRI? (Via EDL?)

Being disappointed as a rule, I think it's more likely Vegas will now be seen as a "middle product" like the "Studio" products provide an upgrade path to the "serious" amateur products, At 6X the money. For 50% better code? You've got to admire the business acument that Sony has brought into this deal.

So to learn from this pattern, there will certainly only ever be forward compatibility of product by Vegas, and never equivalency.

As to the possibility of Vegas (EDL) proxy editing? First, if Vegas is to be the pre-eminent audio editor at the XPRI level, this is getting diesel duty out of Vegas. Second, since the EDL list requires the XPRI suite to function, the EDL list is a no-harm business proposition. Third, the idea of a "laptop editor" for XCam could be a fantastic business decision.

Unfortunately the proxy edit role for Vegas breaks (even worse) with the long Japanese business practice of stubbornly separating badging. Therefore the depressingly disappointed in me believes it won't happen. The Japanese are strict incrementalists by faith.

On the other hand if Americans have any say in it -- the idea that every stringer news crew could do a rough edit in a Starbucks could make the XCam the defacto standard of EDL -- and that's a booming business. Just here's the tape and the rough cut. Cool! HD cable news here we come! (Actually I don't own a TV. And I'm not planning on on owning one. I produce lectures. I am, however, a radio news junky. 8^)

Fortunately for us the capabilities of Vegas itself are significantly better than DV -- certainly DVCAM is a big improvement -- I would consider an XCam now if it can serve as a DVCAM deck (iLink in/out, full size tapes or disk). Sony may keep mum on that budget use issue, because the ENG crowd won't care. Unless they really are breaking with the past here.

I'll tell Mr. Sony-sama this: I like the idea of having one foot in the future and one foot on solid ground.

Yep.

I keep hearing confllicting reports from people. Although logically, given that the PDW510 has a firewire in and out, I cannot see why it wouldn't function as a DV device like any other camera. I find this all rather odd.

xgenei,
I think you're a tad confused. From an end product quality point of view DVCAM offers NO advantage whatsoever over DV period, end of story. It's exactly the same video stream, same everything. The ONLY difference is how it's physically written to the tape and anything including Vgeas that can edit DV can edit DVCAM.

Vegas and XPRI are already integrated and via a much better mechanism than a crude EDL, the entire project can be uploaded from Vegas to XPRI via XML, this gives you FXs, settings, the works. Not even high end Avid systems can manage that.
As SonyEPM pointed out you can already ingest video from the XDCAM, except only the 4:1:1 DV stream. Being able to handle the IMX stream is a much more complex issue and that's only a very small part of it anyway. You still need something to output to and a suitable deck makes the cost of the XPRI a small factor.
Once you enter the world of HDCAM (which is where my interest lies) the cost of the core edit system compared to the cost of VCRs and monitors is irrelevant.
To suggest there's some conspiracy afoot is silly, it's so silly because Sony knows the biggest thing holding widespread acceptance of HD back is lack of content. The more people they can get out there shooting HD at various levels the more HDCAM gear they're going to sell to the broadcasters and that's where the money is.

Bob.

It can function like any DV device, this was done very publicly for the Sheryl Crowe in flight concert some time ago. The issue isn't that, it's with the IMX SD stream that it can also record.

Bob.

From Sony XDCAM product manager:

"The PDW-510 and 530 have a built in iLINK connection which works just like the deck."

SimonW: using a 1394 card and cable, Vegas can talk directly to either XDCAM camera and capture just like you would from a DV camera or deck. This is a realtime capture, DVCAM only, no IMX MPEG, MPEG4 or MXF metadata (for now- can't say more).

Sony EPM, thanks very much for finding this out. I had one reply from Sony saying that Vegas could not interface with the 510 either by ilink or any other method. I found this to be strange, so your reply has given me the confidence I need to finally go out and get the camera. Thanks very much again :-)

When Vegas can handle the MXF files in the future, even better!

Yes, Bob -- I mentally combined my baseline for a pro camera -- but DVCAM is indeed my baseline for reliability (I was thinking DVCPRO 25/50 capability for signal). But as to the upgrade from mini tape, don't dismiss the fact that the tape itself is a major cost-reliability-quality factor. Those mini-tapes are just uncomfortably close to the edge of mechanical reliability and performance -- and they do suffer drop outs with time, and interchangeability problems.

I don't want to split hairs -- this is just my educated and experienced old-guy opinion. But it seems clear to me that business school types ABHOR a single strong standard and love standards confusion for a good reason -- it keeps returns high and innovation flowing. Like APPLE versus IBM versus SPARC, SUN, etc. You don't believe in business conspiracies? What's wrong with business conspiracies? <Reluctant grin.>

I don't want to quote your entire technical, (up a few messages ago), but I do want to follow up on the integration between Vegas and XPRI, and ask a follow up question. First I think you are saying I can edit DV on my home system, then conform that to the IMX HD by delivering an XML file and the original disk (basically -- right?). Okay -- so that's what we've been talking about -- the XML is a sophisticated EDL, right?

Okay that's great, anticipating the usual limitations of course of translating one person's system to a bureau's.

FOLLOW UP QUESTION: I'm looking at the XPRI and seeing a typical hydra of interface boards and so on, with a price tag in the vacation condo range. So let's talk about a DVCPRO 25/50 solution from Sony or something comparable? Is that something with the proper interface Vegas or a much slimmer XPRI can do? Or does that pretty much rule out XCam to your knowledge?

BR, -John

I totally agree re reliability of shooting in DV versus DVCAM, you wouldn't how much grief clients cause me and last week I had one who used 90 minute tapes and the switched to LP half way through the tape and then to add to my joy the tape jammed in the VCR!
But seeing as how the camera records to disk that would seem irrelevant. I guess the ONLY reason they call it DVCAM is becuase the audio is locked.
I'd still be a bit worried about the reliability of the BluRay discs though, doesn't take much to set them off.
I don't have a problem with believing in conspiracies, there's just so much floating around that's total BS that the real ones get hidden and discredited. A post here, all in caps, a few days ago is typical of the mentality that I abhor.

Bob.

farss, CBS bought the xdcam because it pass the field use, a lot cheaper that the solidstate cards and more stable. A $10k solid state card can be easily destroy by weather than a BluRay-disk, $25 disk vs $10k card. Storage becomes an econ. option. Expect to see laptop BluRay disk options with highend plugins for vegas editing. If you are thinking XPRI, wait till they seperate the sony video hardware from the computer, this is coming in the near future, sooner than later I hope.