That's what I was afraid of...I have a number of friends
who work in radio, post production...weekend guitar
slingers who turned me on to Vegas and the Delta. I always
wondered why they were running Win 98 etc...but hey,
everything was working on their machines...So now the
question: Does anybody out there have this setup(or close
to it) and have access to all their inputs?

Cheers,

Cuzin B

I have Delta 10/10 soundcard and can't use more than two
tracks under W2K. The design of Windows 2000 doesn't work
with the use of more than two tracks, I think. I wish it
did work. If you look at
http://www.midiman.com/m-audio/drivers.htm
website under Win2K section, it explains some details
regarding the deficiancy of Delta under Win2k. My stratagy
is to wait for Whistler by Microsoft to come out at the end
of the year. Maybe this OS will address this perdiciment.

Here's the latest on this and it appears that it is an
issue with Sonic Foundry...not Win 2k or with M Audio. I
have exchanged a pile of email with M Audio tech support
and their card works fine with Cubase, Sonar and other apps
under Win 2K. The M Audio drivers are working fine in these
programs and allow the full duplex mode and access to all
inputs/outputs.

So, I finally relented and added Win 98SE to my workstation
and of course everything works fine under that OS. But what
is the story here? I paid 500+ dollars (Canadian) for an
application that won't work with one of the most popular
sound cards under Windows 2k . Windows 2000 has been out
for over a year...let's get with the program here, guys!

Is there any plans to make this work?

Feeling a little frustrated...

Cuzin B

Copied verbatim from: http://www.midiman.net/m-
audio/techfaq.htm

"Q.Will my Delta card work in Windows 2000 Professional?
What is the story on drivers for other OS’s?

A.The current Delta NT/2000 drivers will work with Windows
2000, unless you have Multiprocessors.


NOTE: Windows 2000 Update

Important information for current or potential Windows 2000
users.


Microsoft has recently disclosed programming techniques
which allow digital audio applications to circumvent the
inherent Kmixer delay associated with WDM drivers. Software
application companies are currently hard at work
incorporating these techniques into forthcoming releases."

Sonic Foundry: This is true- we are hard at work
incorporating these "recently released programming
techniques". Can't promise a date as the fix requires lots
of changes, testing, and a re-release of both ACID and
Vegas.

Thanks for the update. I do want to stress that this is a
giant step sideways (not backward yet!)for your product and
I am feeling really "taken" as far as spending my money on
an app that is very well respected in the circles I hang
out in.

I guess I should have spent some time in these forums prior
to purchase to find out the pitfalls were but my assumption
(as wrong as it is) was that after a bloody year in the
marketplace, application developers would have had their
Win 2K issues figured out. I mean - Win 2K is already
slated for the glue factory come the Windows XP release
this fall. So what is going to happen then? Are Sonic
Foundry Vegas users going to just get comfy with
their "new" (2 year old) version of 2.0e (or whatever it
will be called) that finally works with Win2K, just to get
another surprise when XP comes out and Vegas runs back to a
2 channel sound card?

Sorry for the rant but this is more than annoying.

Cuzin B

Hmmmm ... Did you ever wonder why there are other
soundcards that have no problem with the Vegas/Win2K
combination?

Mixtreme for one ... our two cards give us 32 I/O under
Win2K/Vegas with no problems.

In my experience with Delta's manufacturers they have been
well known for two things: piss poor driver support (their
Win2K drivers don't even attempt to support
multiprocessors, one of the MAIN reasons to run that OS),
and pointing the finger of blame at everyone but themselves.

SF is far from perfect, but you can't sucessfully lay the
blame on them for the shortcomings of barely adequate
hardware driver programming, and the constantly changing
KMixer/WDM whims of MSFT.

KAC ...

Okay...I can understand where you are coming from. I agree
that the fact that "other" cards work fine...but I don't
have your card. I am glad that you are working fine with
Windows 2000. I know that myself and other Delta owners
(judging by the posts in here) are a wee bit pissed off and
being in the software biz myself (day job) I know how
the "laying" of blame can go round and round.

So M Audio tells me it's Vegas...now you're saying it's M
Audio? Personally, I just wanna make some music, ya know?

Here's one for you - If M Audio has such poor drivers and
support, maybe you can explain why the Delta works fine
with other software (Sonar (Cakewalk) just came out - hell
is it even out yet?) and M Audio claims the Delta works as
advertised (full duplex) with Windows 2000. Something
smells funny here. A program (Sonar) that is basically
still on preorder status "already" works with Delta cards
and Win 2000?

And Sonic Foundry - which I really like (don't get me wrong
here)is still pissing around after at least a year trying
to figure out how to tackle the KMixer and WDM in Win 2000?

I do understand it's always a huge job to intergrate these
things, but I don't believe that Sonic Foundry should be
even referencing Win 2000 as a platform choice. The Vegas
packaging should clearly state to what level of Win 2000
support the app will provide with pro level cards. (maybe
throw a list on the web site of "truly" supported cards.)

I have spent way too much time researching this and
everybody is pointing to the application NOT the drivers.
Just the fact that Sonar, Cubase and others work fine tells
me the drivers must work, M Audio has done their part and
it looks like these application companies have done their
part - everybody is happy.

Except those of us that bought Vegas with this combo. I
even read some threads on how Sonic Foundry bundles Vegas
with the Delta for sale. Well - companies do not get to
that level of coziness without talking about what platforms
they are marketing to and what is supported/not supported.

If I would have known that I was buying a real
expensive "stereo" card instead of the 6 input card that
others I know are using just fine, I would have passed on
the Vegas product.

Cuzin B

>>So M Audio tells me it's Vegas...now you're saying it's M
Audio? Personally, I just wanna make some music, ya know?
... and that is *exactly* what I've been doing since
sending my Delta card back where it came from ... along
with running an application designed to take advantage of
multiprocessors on an OS that supports multiprocessors. :)

Most folks seem to bitch about the 30ms latency of Kmixer
as the gotcha with Win2K, but you haven't even mentioned
that as an issue?

Just wondering.

KAC ...

Latency is not the problem. If I set up the Delta 66 in Win
2K with the latest drivers and launch Vegas against it, I
get a stereo card. Left and right and that's all. Still
very useable and no latency at all. The rig records fine
but it no 6 inputs in Vegas like I paid for.

My need for full duplex is not that I have 12 arms and am
playing 8 instruments at once...I have a project involving
a series of old 4 track multitracks (tape) that I am
recutting to digital before the tape fades away. With Vegas
working properly in Win 2K, the Delta can have 6 ins in one
pass. I just hook up the Multitrack and let the tapes run.
All 4 tracks are recorded at once and I am in edit heaven.

Found out pretty fast that all I had was 2 inputs and a
stereo job is not what I have in mind.

For now, the Win ME install is working great and I can live
with it until all parties get things working.

Cheers,

Cuzin B

I am not surprised that you are unhappy, given that
situation ... nor do I want to beat a dead horse. However,
I remain confused as to whether it is SF's lack of
implementation of KMixer KS that is making your card a two
channel card, or the Delta drivers?

I admittedly have not been paying all that much attention
to the Win2K/Kmixer/WDM issue because of latency not being
an issue for the way we use Vegas, but it looks to me that
you are being bitten more on the two channel issue by M's
ASIO/MME API driver implementaion under Win2K than by SF's
understandable lack of Kmixer KS support?

I say "understandable", because I believe that Microsoft
just recently released the programming techniques for
bypassing the Kmixer and very few application providers
have had time to implement whatever is necessary to
implement that.

Please correct me if I am wrong. :)

Thanks.

KAC ...

The story as I personally see it (not the official SF
response, but close enough):

Microsoft changed behaviors for one OS(I'll give them the
benefit of the doubt, and agree that its an improvement),
then new 3rd party soundcard drivers came out, then
recently MSFT posted "programming techniques" to get around
the new "feature" they introduced (which broke what was
working). This means we get to: re-write the audio engine
for our applications; test this specific fix thoroughly to
make sure our changes work with the older drivers and the
other 3 OS's we support, plus the new OS coming out; retest
the apps in their entirety as we have to do with any major
engine change...I really really truly wish we could whip
this kind of change out on a dime, but it just isn't
possible.

As I said previously, the Kmixer fix IS on the list for
Vegas 3, (planned release for this fall) so we are
addressing the problem. I agree that it doesn't help you in
the near term, but we're not bailing on the issue.

Also: I'm not whining or making excuses, and in fact we
appreciate it when our users help us prioritize our
engineering tasks. Keep the feedback coming-

You know, the thing that irks me isn't that Vegas won't
work with WIN 2k the way I need it to. I understand that
M.S. changed the rules, not S.F. I don't even have a
problem with waiting until later this year for a fix. The
problem I have is that Vegas came bundled with my Delta
1010 with absolutely NO indication that it wasn't going to
work as advertised using the WIN 2K O.S. That's
misleading. I purchased my 1010/Vegas bundle months after
WIN 2k hit the street. There was plenty of time for both
parties to discover that the two weren't going to work
together correctly using WIN 2k, and post a warning on
either the S.F. website, or the Delta website. At least I
could have had a heads-up when I was making the $700
plunge. Looking around the S.F. site this afternnon, I
STILL don't see any sort of indication that there will be
problems if you're planning on using WIN 2k, Vegas, and the
Delta 1010.

I'm a patient man, and I'll wait patiently for the fix.
For now though, I'm trying to do professional audio
production using a second-rate consumer O.S., and the
results are unacceptable. I WANT MY NTFS!

Thanks for listening.

JP3,

Here, Here my man!. When we are talking bundles...there
should be a huge warning on the box (the website, on these
forums...wherever!) before you buy. Like I said in previous
posts...I would have walked right by Vegas if I would have
known this was going to happen.

Now as it stands, a lot of the gang I hang with and get
tips from love SF Vegas and it is a great product BUT - at
the current cost to purchase (especially us frost-bitten
Canadian boys!), this is a huge disappointment. Lucky for
me, I have the luxury of a multi OS environ to experiment
and "get around" the short comings for the time being. But
what about those that do not? What the hell are they going
to do...stay with Win 95 until 2003?

Looks like the few SF staff who come in here are at least
taking this in stride and trying to keep us up on things.
However - think this through -(being a software developer
myself)...Way, way , way in the back...deep in caverns of
SF where all that hot coding is going on....do ya think
they are standing around developing and compiling this C++
code in Win 98SE???

Not a chance in hell! - it has to be Win 2000 without a
doubt. So if they are already on the working/writing/coding
on this platform...let's get it on and test/write/code this
thing so it works for Win 2K.

I mean seriously...who the hell is going to rely on
Win9x/ME for serious audio work?

While I am on the rantbox - Anybody have any luck getting a
6 channel Delta 66 hit in Vegas from an Win NT 4
Workstation? It's stable and I have used it for
years....maybe I could go that route?

Cuzin B

I SERIOUSLY dont think the problems you have with your
Delta ( a MIDIman product) is the fault of sonic foundry.
Lest you think me an apologist, here is what I think of SF
lately.
Sonic Foundry has dropped the ball time and again, and I
seriously doubt their commitment to the future in pro audio
after the sf 5.0 cd architect joke. So what?

I spent 2 days of MY time MY long distance bill to try and
get multiple Midiman Midisport USB's working in win2k...we
went through all the crap and in the end it was admitted by
them( and the FACTS) that midimans drivers were not yet
capable of this feature, though they advertise up to three
devices per PC on the BOX!!! Sound familiar?

In fairness the Midisport USB was a VERY easy to use and
trouble free device, when I had only ONE of them...but now
forget it...
Its been a YEAR and more since win2k and they still dont
have drivers that work!
same goes for echo and aarvark

I have yet to hear of a delta working right in win2k on ANY
app...go look in the forums under www.cubase.net sure
delta works ok with asio drivers, but NOT the regular
windows drivers. Dont talk about sonar as it aint even on
the market and just like Nuendo for BeOS anyone can make
ANY cl;aim about vaporware! anyone ever see nuendo released
for BeOS??? NOPE!!!

apples and oranges...

and another thing...I could care less if vegas ever runs
WDM...although on my mixtreme card I DO see WDM available
in vegas...hmmm...

as far as I know WDM is limited to 44.1khz 16 bit, so I
wont use it anyway...

sorry for the long rant :) happy number crunching!

Lemme tell ya where I am at with all parties/products.

I am not blaming SF for the problem. I guess I am blaming
myself for making a few choices I am going to have to live
with. I also love all three products (Vegas, The Delta and
Win 2K). I am not about to start exchanging things because
a driver doesn't work perfectly across the board.

What I am pissed about is how SF "advertises" they are Win
2000 compatible and even worse "bundles" Vegas with the
Delta but doesn't say anything about the ramifications of
using it on Win 2000.

Sure it will work,(if stereo is your thing) but "stereo"
ain't your thing if you buy a card like the Delta. IF I had
a crappy Soundblaster, I wouldn't be yakkin' away in here.
Most of us are expecting the 6 ins/outs for Delta 66(or in
the case of the Delta 1010) 10 ins/outs when cranking up
Vegas under Win 2000. That's the bottom line.

We could sit here all year and talk about this. I have a
dual boot now (Win ME and 2000) and I am having a blast
with Vegas on the Delta in Win ME. So far so good.

I just hope we get a version of Vegas or newer drivers (M
Audio) to be able to enjoy the stability, file sizes, NTFS
and all the other good stuff that Win 2000 can provide to
record my music.

Cheers,

Cuzin B

>>as far as I know WDM is limited to 44.1khz 16 bit, so I
wont use it anyway...
It is my understanding that the above is true because of
the current Kmixer limitations.

But I wonder if it will still be a limitation with
the "recently released programming techniques" to "bypass"
the Kmixer using Kmixer KS?

SF? ... anyone?

KAC ...

" I am not blaming SF for the problem. I guess I am blaming
myself for making a few choices I am going to have to live
with. I also love all three products (Vegas, The Delta and
Win 2K). I am not about to start exchanging things because
a driver doesn't work perfectly across the board.

"

Dont blame yourself either! This is a MESSED up industry.
Where else but the PC market ( and POSSIBLY buying FORD
parts from Pep Boys ) can you buy a part advertised to work
with something else, and it just doesnt work???

Any other industry and we could sue, but some how "
compatiable " oesnt have the same definition in this bizz
as it does elsewhere. I think that most people on here will
attest to the fact that we have become competent computer
techs and parts detectives even though all we wanted was to
use the stuff as advertised!
That is the state of affairs...

Forward this thread to Midiman, I am continuing to hammer
them about their Midisport drivers, so maybe, just maybe
they will finally give in like MOTU has and keep their
drivers current. In the meantime, I get 32 individual I/o's
using a pair of mixtreme's as does Karl. These require
converters ( I use my TASCAM DA-x8's for this) or you could
go to Guitar walmart Center and buy Tascam TMD-1000's for
300 bucks a pieace to do the same thing. The bummer is, the
delta cards actually sound pretty darn good, I wish they
could get them working!

Other companies have implemented fixes in their software
for the WDM issue. Sonic Foundry's response was an excuse
stating that this was a major fix for them to undertake. So
don't expect this fix for the Windows 2000 wdm driver issue
until the next major version release.

IMO, to expect users to wait this long for Windows 2000
support (more than 2 channels, that is) is a very poor
position. Here in Nashville, we've recommended that others
use different software if security is an issue (it should
be since a lot of studios are networked, and are connected
to the Internet). Sonic Foundry's handling of the Windows
2000 issue strikes me as sophomoric when one considers the
stability and security differences between 98/Me/2000, and
that others have already implemented this issue, and
Midiman first made this information available back in
November (approx.). Anything other than a fix is a poor
excuse.


You wrote:

"It is my understanding that the above is true because of
the current Kmixer limitations.

"But I wonder if it will still be a limitation with
the "recently released programming techniques" to "bypass"
the Kmixer using Kmixer KS?"

Sonic Foundry has a lot of issues that need correcting, but
you are barking up the wrong tree on this one.

Put the WDM issue on the side for a bit. Almost every other
multichannel card out there works and HAS worked for a long
time. WDM is not the other driver system out there. It is
only just now being implemented. All the other cards have
worked just fine using the standard multimedia system. My
soundscape WDm drivers work just fine in vegas.

Midiman LOVES to blame everyone else
you wouldnt even BELIEVE what they put me through last week
trying to get two midiman midisports to work in win2k
they KNEW the problem and thought that if they put enough
hoops in front of me I would give up, before I discovered
their lack of a decent(working) driver.
Finally after I had done everything they asked they
admitted fault, but not till then.

How do you think weve been running vegas in win2k for the
past more than a year? This is midiman's problem not vegas'

That said it IS time for sonic foundry to start offering
some stuff professional users need ( in my opinion)
such as:
hardware control of faders
true fader grouping
realistic batch procesing
pan controls on send fx so multichannel outputs can be used
in a sensible way

The issue, in this case, is Sonic Foundry's responsibility -
Sonic Foundry has already acknowledged this on this very
same message board.

We have contacted Microsoft and this issue isn't something
Midiman invented to save face.

wait a second I dont understand, BEFORE there were even
talk of wdm drivers, all of our cards worked just fine in
vegas...cant midiman at least get their stuff working the
EASY way before we can trusdt that theyll have their stuff
working the HARD way?

Perhaps you missed the statement that I posted regarding
Sonic Foundry's acknowledgement that this is Sonic
Foundry's problem. This isn't Midiman's problem.

This is quite simple:

Until Sonic Foundry changes their software you will not be
able to have more than 2 channels while using "fix"
proposed by Microsoft (which Midiman implemented months
ago). We have been using Windows 2000 exclusively since
last April (except for 2 WinME computers becuase of this
issue) and we know a thing or two about this issue
especially since we've communicated with Microsoft,
Midiman, and Sonic Foundry. Everyone has acknowledged that
this is a Vegas issue in this case, including Sonic
Foundry.