Vegas for Broadcast? Very frustrated

PerroneFord wrote on 1/30/2009, 9:32 AM

/rant on/

So I started with Vegas 6.0 a while back, and left Premiere. I've been quite happy with Vegas over the years even with some of it's more maddening quirks. However, I am currently building my first projects for broadcast instead of internal corporate use. And franky, Vegas is driving me crazy right now.

Those who've submitted for broadcast know that you need to have a few things before your program starts. Bars, Tone, Program Slate, countdown leader. So here's where the frustration starts.

1. Vegas has bars. No tone. It has tone if you print to tape but I am not interested in going to tape. How can a program of this caliber not have tone and not be able to generate tone? I need two different types of tone in fact, and will have to source them separately. Maddening.

2. Countdown leader. None in Vegas. I had to pull up my 4 year old copy of Premiere and create it. Geez, that's crazy.

3. About that tone again. So I got it, inserted it on the left and right tracks. No problems there. But I need to set the levels at exactly -20dBf. Uhhh... the mixer has no -20??? I can't even zoom in on it to SEE a -20. None of the plug-ins seem to have a -20dBf either. Yes, I can see the peak level on top of the bars. But honestly, a -20dBf signal is so standard it should be on the Media Generator tab (like it is in my 4+ year old version of Premiere).

I know a lot of people use Vegas and enjoy it. But quite honestly, it's piddly quirks like that that keep it out of pro use in many regards.

Absolutely ridiculous.

/rant off/

Now all that venting done, does ANYONE have workarounds for these silly issues (#1 and #2)?

Comments

Former user wrote on 1/30/2009, 10:28 AM

I have just created tones in other programs like Cool Edit pro.

There is an MDA VST tone generator, but it is rather quirky to work with.

Create a countdown leader and just use it as a stock media. You can create your own in Vegas using the title generator or other methods.

Dave T2

TheHappyFriar wrote on 1/30/2009, 10:39 AM

I never used bars/tone/countdown (would like a slate saying what's there though). Never made any either.

why? What's the use of a tone? Everybody has different volume tones (even stuff from sony, paramount, etc), and it's not related in any way to what's in the program following it. I've only found it usefull when getting strange feeds off the dish's & for some reason a companies tone would be ~2-4x louder then everyone else's. Most of the time it didn't affect the production anyway!

Bars? for what? They don't go over the air, and IF the person who dubbed/edited/etc did his job, nothing should be out of bounds. Period. I don't recall ever NOT having a waveform monitor with adjustments for what's going to the xmitter, That would just be plain stupid. So if someone DID FUBAR (which has happened with stuff AGAN, from sony, paramount, etc) you can fix it. And you can't fix what's on the tape/already broadcast anyway, so when Disney sent cartoons hot over the dishes, there's nothing anyone could do.

Count down? My digital VCR's at the time let me move via the frame if I wanted. I'd go to the start, cue, all set. If i was capturing (which was done for all commercials) they were brought in to the NLE & everything was cut down to just the spot anyway. When I did this with shows it was the same.

Sure, years ago before everything was digital that stuff was good & usefull, but now imho it's a waste of time & space. Put up a 5 second slate saying what's on the tape/broadcast & it's all set.

Yeah, it's a rant, but they're useless. It's like complaing to the car dealer that your car doesn't come with an 8-track!

rs170a wrote on 1/30/2009, 10:45 AM

Peronne, as Dave said, make your own countdown with generated media.
Sticking to the real basics (i.e. stock text template and basic numbers only), I did it in about 5 min., bars & tone included.
If you have Sound Forge, tone is very easy to create.
Tools - Synthesis - Simple.
Enter in the desired values and save it.
Create the tone at '0' and then use the volume control in Vegas to set it to the deasired level.
Typically, the beeps are 5 frames each until #2 and then it's only 2 frames (number and tone).
Use 400 Hz for the beeps from #10 to #3 and 1KHz at #2 to alert the operator.

edit: if you don't have Sound Forge, email me (click on my name) a list of what you want, I'll make them for you and send them back.

Mike

rs170a wrote on 1/30/2009, 10:53 AM

What's the use of tone/bars/countdown/slate?

Believe it or not, there are still stations around that require this.
Not too many any more but, it it's for broadcast, it's a good habit to get into.

Tone meant that no portion of the following program would exceed the level that went along with colour bars.
Colour bars was for the tape operator to set the station's gear to to optimize the luminance, chroma and black levels that were on the program that followed this test signal.
Unfortunately a lot of folks simply slap these on without paying any attention to the audio and video levels of the program itself.
I've dubbed shows that I've set according to the bars & tone at the beginning and then had to go back and radically alter the program material as levels were all over the place - usually far too high :-(

Mike

richard-courtney wrote on 1/30/2009, 11:27 AM

I feel your pain!

Some get the tone from the camera if pro gear. You can print to tape to get the
1000Hz -20dBFS tone. But some stations want lip sync beeps at 400Hz.
So where do you go? Download the free trial version of Sound Forge and
generate sets of tones to your heart's content.
I'd recommend tones at -1 -3 -6 -9 -12 -16 -20 -24 -27 -31 dBFS at 400Hz 1KHz
15KHz. The range is to test your compressor settings.

-20dBFS should be visible without zooming in on audio track waveform.

Check with your station as far as leader. Also once you create the program
they will check it for level compliance but usual they look at timecode in and out.
Several want start at 01:00:00;00 as automation ignores the countdown.

kairosmatt wrote on 1/30/2009, 11:30 AM

I recently went through this too, and was surprised that A) Vegas didn't have standard tones but B) how easy SF was to create it. There is a tutorial in one of the news letters that makes explains it well.

Just so I'm reading everything right and all you pros (Mike for one) are reading this thread: the point of tone/bars is to make sure everyone is calibrating their equipement to the same levels right? If you know the tone is set to -20db, and if your program never exceeds -3db, it won't on the broadcast right? Same with colours: so a black is a black is a black.

Is that the full extent of it?

Still learning, and want to make sure I'm not missing any gotchas....

kairosmatt

richard-courtney wrote on 1/30/2009, 11:39 AM

If you follow the standard the station gives you it will be accepted.
There is known issues with Digibeta submissions, google to read more or
look in past issues of Creative Cow magazine.

The bars and tone never get broadcast. (unless the station is automated and your
timecode is wrong!)

I'd use the Broadcast Colors FX for video and the Compressor FX for audio.

Former user wrote on 1/30/2009, 12:10 PM

We do a lot of duplication for broadcast and most (if not all) still require Bars and Tone. Not everybody is all digital, many local stations still use tapes to load to their servers.

Also, if there is a problem with the way your spot looks on the air (such as washed out or video is hot) you can prove to the station tha they did not set your tape up right if you have the tones and bar reference.

Once everybody is TOTALLY digital, then this won't be an issue. But as long as we are mixing analog and digital broadcasts, tapes etc, it is a good idea to use tones and bars.

Dave T2

farss wrote on 1/30/2009, 12:15 PM

1) Good questions. Ones I've been asking for a very long time.

2) Assuming you already have tone at 0dBfs add a volume envelope to the track. RClick the first node and select Set To. Enter -20.

A lot of people now set to tone to -12dBfs. Good idea to ident where you have tone visually. Note that tone should also ident channels with (I think) 1sec dropouts in the right channel. If anyone is interested I can get the exact specs for both stereo and 5.1.

Contrary to what some above may think a national broadcast chain may still go through baseband circuits in places and T&B is still used to ensure everything is at unity. Any broadcaster that takes your content seriously (e.g. BBC) expects these things, it's how you communicate your intent to them.

Bob.

rs170a wrote on 1/30/2009, 12:23 PM

the point of tone/bars is to make sure everyone is calibrating their equipement to the same levels right?

IMHO, yes.
As I said, for a number of years, any tape that went to a broadcaster had to have a specified length of colour bars & tone, slate & countdown.
If bars & tone weren't at the proper levels, you usually got a calll from the (usually a crusty old) chief engineer telling you to "fix the **** levels on your tape - or else!!"
Bars & tone were s the standard that was used everywhere to ensure consistency.
If what I see on TV these days is any indicator, no one follows standards any more :-(

Mike

PerroneFord wrote on 1/30/2009, 12:33 PM

Thanks for thoughts everyone.

Most of my work is government, and I do a lot of back and forth with the local PBS affiliate. PBS follows Redbook. Period. And if it's wrong, it doesn't get played. DiscoveryHD and affiliates also require Bars/Tone/Slate/Countdown and it's very specific. Read the producer's guides.

PBS also requires closed captioning, but that's a whole different matter since Vegas/DVDA make ZERO provision for closed captions. I guess compliance with federal rule 508 is something Sony doesn't feel they need to accomodate. And no, subtitles is NOT the same thing.

I downloaded some simple and free software to generate the tones. And I already had bars. So I've worked that part out. Just maddening that it wouldn't be included in an NLE north of $500.

I know some people are sloppy in their video/audio submission. I am not. If the submission guides give maximum IRE and gamut, that's where my stuff is. If they want program start a 01:00:00;00 then that's where mine is going to be. Maybe some of you can afford to not follow the rules.

kairosmatt wrote on 1/30/2009, 12:46 PM

I think we are one of the few Bahamian companies that does try and follow the rules (ANY rules really) but especially tech spec and copyright-mostly because we are growing (slowly) and may be looking outside the (really really small) country for more work.

But sometimes its all for naught here, I mean the cable access channel usually mixes up all their interlaced fields. I also suspect they just send pirated satellite over the other channels as their 'service.'

So I especially appreciate everyone here sharing their experiences and knowledge, there is no where locally I can go!

cheers,
kairosmatt

PeterWright wrote on 1/30/2009, 4:15 PM

- but it is strange that when you print to tape, Vegas shows that it CAN generate tone, but the only way to get it on a timeline is to go out to tape then recapture, thereby losing some of that well-known time gained by using such a "fast" editing program.

GlennChan wrote on 1/30/2009, 5:42 PM

Sure, years ago before everything was digital that stuff was good & usefull, but now imho it's a waste of time & space.
IMO, bars are still useful. Some equipment can get HD encoding wrong (e.g. older HD equipment), HD<-->SD conversions 'wrong', etc.
This article explains some of the issues: http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/hd-versus-sd-color-space/hd-versus-sd-color-space.htm

Also, a lot of work is being sent out on betaSP.

Just maddening that it wouldn't be included in an NLE north of $500.
1- Honestly, the workarounds are simple and take very little time.

There are some six-figure editing systems out there (e.g. Mistika, Quantel) that aren't 100% stable and have odd little quirks. I don't believe Mistika is able to generate tone... but who cares because there are many ways around that.

And there are workarounds for getting closed captioning into a master... e.g. you can do this in a linear editing bay.

2- If you're talking about mid-high end broadcast, then you'll need some expensive equipment. Real scopes (*not* the ones in Vegas), VTRs, etc. that all costs money. A $500 piece of software is a steal compared to how much a lot of the other stuff costs.

3- For broadcast work, there are some other deficiencies that can get you.
Don't trust the scopes in Vegas.
Don't use 1.000 compositing gamma and the broadcast colors filter.

But I need to set the levels at exactly -20dBf. Uhhh... the mixer has no -20??? I can't even zoom in on it to SEE a -20. None of the plug-ins seem to have a -20dBf either.
The mixer does have -20. Right click the meters, select a range that includes -20dB.

The meters will hold peaks and you can see what level your tone is at. You can adjust the gain on audio clips to set their levels. You can right click an audio clip and normalize it to 0. From there you can figure out how to change the levels on any tone to whatever level you want.
You can click the maximize icon (to the left of where #1/2/3 in the left hand column is, left of where the name of the track is) if you need finer control over the gain setting.

Spot|DSE wrote on 1/30/2009, 6:21 PM

We had a slate contest a few years ago on the VASST site, and all the slates are still there. Tones are part of several of them.
Most of us (I would opine) have our own slates that we use for everything.

Steve Mann wrote on 1/30/2009, 9:36 PM

Spot - Where? Search turns up nothing and the only thing in the downloads section is one DigitalFilmSlate.veg.

kplo wrote on 1/30/2009, 9:42 PM

Glenn,
Just how far off are the scopes in Vegas, and what specifically is wrong with the broadcast clamp filter. I use these all the time for broadcast spots and now you've got me worryin'. :)
Ken

busterkeaton wrote on 1/31/2009, 1:19 AM

Also once you do the slate with the tones. Save that veg and voila, you never had to generate them again.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 1/31/2009, 9:47 AM

Since this is a new area for me, being a shooter first, editor second, I'd like to get a better understanding around this to be better prepped for possible submission for local broadcast.

I added a 10 second NTSC color bar and -18db tone (with a -2db reduction to make it -20db) to a timeline and saved it to a veg file - it appears what I'm missing is the countdown portion - any idea how to download or create one so I can use it as a shared resource for my future projects? I set it as an HDV veg file and figured I'd go with it from there

Thanks.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | solo video journalism blog

PerroneFord wrote on 1/31/2009, 12:24 PM

1. Yes, I've done the workarounds, and yes they are simple. Just amazed I am working around things in Vegas 8.1 that I had in Premiere 6.0.

2. As for the CC, I don't have a linear editing bay. Although I have to prepare video, I am in an office, not in a production studio. Right now we send out for CC, but it appears that even if I do that, they production house cannot send me back something I can integrate into DVDA. That's a killer for some projects.

3. I have to trust my scopes in Vegas. I don't have other ones. I do have friends in broadcast that can do checks for me though which is helpful. And I never work in linear gamma. Not to finish with anyway.

As for the meters, maybe your version is different than mine. But there is no -20 on 8.0b, 8.0c, or 8.1. Not even when you zoom in. Yes, I used the peaks and I mentioned that in my last post.

richard-amirault wrote on 1/31/2009, 12:29 PM

...the countdown portion - any idea how to download or create one ...

Create one the same way you put text on screen. Put a text box up .. type in the numbers 10 with the font size something appropriate .. set the length to 1 second. Do the same for the next text box except use 9 .. and so on. Stop after 3 and leave black 'till zero.

If you want sound/tone for each number create that as well.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 1/31/2009, 12:38 PM

So there's no specific standard count down timer that I need to be concerned about???

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | solo video journalism blog

Former user wrote on 1/31/2009, 1:02 PM

If you want to be technically correct

http://www.ebu.ch/CMSimages/en/tec_doc_t3203_tcm6-10505.pdf#search=%22Universal%20Counting%20Leader%22

But normally a countdown starts at 10 seconds, and has 1 frame of the 2 second mark with a corresponding 1 frame beep. Followed by black until beginning of program.

Dave T2

GlennChan wrote on 1/31/2009, 2:32 PM

Just how far off are the scopes in Vegas, and what specifically is wrong with the broadcast clamp filter. I use these all the time for broadcast spots and now you've got me worryin'. :)

Nothing wrong with the broadcast color filters... but linear compositing will 'break' it.

As far as the scopes go, they are kind of confusing. Simply changing the settings will change what the scopes show... even though your signal hasn't changed. You need to know what your levels are doing to set the scopes correctly.
http://www.glennchan.info/articles/vegas/v8color/v8color.htm
It's also inaccurate when dealing with really illegal values, since its input is clipped to RGB gamut (I don't think it's a big deal in practice). There are other areas where they aren't technically correct, though I don't think it's a big issue in practice.