Thanks for the advice.

I've already watched the Sony Traing DVD and that helped a lot. I think there is an FCP for Xpress Pro users book out there for Xpress Pro users that switch to FCP.

I was looking for a more "conceptual" comparison of the workflows. For instance in Xpress Pro you capture HDV and start editing it. In Vegas you Capture then transcode to an Intermediate format, then start capturing.

A simplified workflow in Xpress Pro is...

o Capture HDV Tape to create a Master Clip
o Create a segment from the Master Clip using In and Out marks
o Drag the segment to the timeline
o Edit the segment accordingly; e.g. transitions, effects etc.

I guess the equivalent in Vegas is...

o Capture HDV Tape to M2T
o Transcode to Intermediate file
o Load into Trimmer
o Create a sub-clip
o Drag sub-clip to timeline
o Edit the sub-clip accordingly; e.g. cross fades, effects etc.

If this is correct, then the Trimmer would play a large role in my Vegas workflow, yet the few training materials I have read and the training DVDs either don't talk about the Trimmer or barely glance over it.

That leaves me feeling like I'm totally missing something as far as a Vegas workflow.

Jeron

Just a note that Cineform's comparison (on their web site) shows a substantial quality improvement from using their intermediate format compared to native HDV editing.

You can look at their examples and decide for yourself.

In the end it's chroma smoothing and a few other things in this process that do create a tangible difference.

Don't look for the nearest equivalent when it comes to workflow, because workflow is so dependent on the strengths and weaknesses of each NLE. For example, I only use the trimmer once or twice in a year, because I just don't like the implementation that much, and it is not needed. You can do so much more [than many other NLEs] on the timeline in Vegas, and I just think it is very natural to do the work there, in context.

o Capture HDV Tape to M2T

You can edit HDV directly on the timeline, use the intermediary, or use a proxy.
You can create new clips or subclips based on selections as opposed to converting entire files.
You can also convert to 4:2:2 2GOP if you have the ability to output/preview SDI using a Decklink card.

Thanks for the advice!

I understand I don't have to use the trimmer and that I can spend $200 more for the CineForm application and $600+ more for a Decklink card. I'm already sold on the CineForm application.

What do you do with an hour long HDV tape that has footage from which you need a dozen or so small 30 sec to 1 min segments?

Editing the raw M2T footage is out of the picture because it is too choppy and clunky even with my dual Xeon 3.6 w/ 2 gigs of RAM, so I'm using the intermediary (in the future I'll use the CineForm application).

Lets say I want 15 segments from the hour long tape each of which is one minute long and scattered across the tape. I don't understand the best workflow for doing this in Vegas.

I was going to capture the hour long tape, then cut out the sub-clips of the footage I want with the trimmer.

Are you saying I should load this hour long clip in 15 separate tracks and trim/cut it down to the segments I want or do I just load it 15 times and trim it down from 1 hour to the 1 minute each time?

Or maybe I should have a special track where I have the whole 1 hour clip loaded just as a "workspace" to find the 15 separate segments I want, mark them as regions then move them into the "real" tracks. When I'm done I can "mute" or delete the "workspace" track with the hour long master clip?

Most of the examples I see and the tutorial DVDs just show dragging an MPG into the timeline, trimming both ends, then crossfading with other clips.

I haven't seen the "optimal" procedure for working with a large clip and grabbing many smaller segments out of it to put in your timeline.

Jeron

P.S. I'd buy a Decklink card as well if I could find another benefit other than displaying my preview on my HD Monitor. I'm using an HVR-M10U deck with firewire connecting to the computer. If I had a Decklink card would I gain benefit of capturing through it instead of firewire?

Many questions!
Decklink card will give you nothing over capturing HDV via 1394 as you're doing now, in fact if you bought a HD capable card all that'd let you do is capture HDV via component which would actually degrade the quality. However for monitoring a HD Declink card would let you output to a HD monitor, very expensive way to work compared to using Vegas to run your second monitor as a video monitor.
To answer your more general question about just extracting short clips form a 1 hour tape, there's no 'right' way to work in Vegas, damn thing is so flexible anyway that works for you is perfectly valid.
What I'd do is just capture the whole tape, drop it on the T/L and cut out the bits I didn't want then move them around to suit, gradually finessing the thing. However if I already had in/out points for the clips then I'd resort to using the trimmer.
I pretty much started with Vegas so I know little about the 'correct' way to edit in anything, yet somehow I usually get the job done quicker in Vegas than others can on other NLEs.
All that said though if I had 20 hours to cut down to 30 minutes with lots of takes of each scene then I'd be back to the traditional approach.
Bob.

Bob thanks,

I figured the Decklink wouldn't give me any capturing benefit over the firewire. I've been waiting on getting a Decklink until Vegas supports off loading some of the workload from the CPU onto it.

I can see a few different ways of getting the job done. I had sort of decided to try the trimmer route, but when I see comments like "I only use the trimmer only a couple of times a year", I wonder if I'm missing something. Heck since the Trimmer wasn't really covered in any of my learning materials, it took me a while to figure out that I had one :)

I like your idea of dumping the whole clip on the time line and cutting out what I don't want. That seems easier with Vegas than using the time line to "cut in" what I do want.

It is pretty strait-forward with Xpress Pro since there is really only one way to do it ;)

Which is why my original post was asking for a book or tutorial that would say, "You do it this way in Xpress Pro and here is how you do the same technique in Vegas".

BTW glennchan, I downloaded that PDF of keys... very nice! It talks about editing in the Trimmer like I was envisioning.

Jeron

farss: "...there's no 'right' way to work in Vegas, damn thing is so flexible anyway that works for you is perfectly valid."

And ain't that the truth! I came to Vegas from Discreet's Edit and had no trouble making the transition. Edit followed the Avid/FCP convention. In product reviews, Vegas always takes heat for it's "non-standard" interface. Whenever I see that it sounds like whining. Who set the so-called "standard," Avid? I find Avid's interface clunky compared to Vegas. Same with FCP. It seems they take the long way around in task accomplishment. But in the end the answer to the question of, "what's the best NLE," is "the one you know."

I use GearShift to do those sorts of conversions, as it's very easy, convenient, and ripples my segments together if I wish it to.

*disclaimer; I'm one of the authors of GearShift.

Just a word or three from a Trimmer fan.

I use it all the time - I also capture whole tapes in one clip, then use the Trimmer to identify, name and sort individual parts. It is especially useful when parts do not finish up in the same order they were shot. Here's how I do it:

Having identified in an out points in the Trimmer, either approximately or exactly, I hit R and create a Region which I then carefully give a name. This name will help me sort the Regions into the order I want a little later. I click the floppy icon above the Trimmer to save the Regions, and these are now available as virtual subclips in Vegas Explorer, Region view.

By clicking at the head of the column with the Region names I can now sort them according to the names given, either ascending or descending.
From there the Regions can either be lifted to the timeline or reopened in the Trimmer for inspecting or adjusting

One advantage of this methof over creating subclips is that the in and out points can be changed any time.

Another way to use the Trimmer is to hit I for In point, O for out point and A to send to cursor position in Timeline. Cursor then moves to the end of the Event ready for the next addition.

Peter,

Thanks alot for that Trimmer Tip! That is a type of workflow I will want to follow.

Dragging an hour long clip onto the timeline, then dragging the left and right side to "cut" it down to a 1 min clip, then rinse and repeat 12 times to get the 12 minutes I want out of the whole clip doesn't sound very productive.

Does anyone know of a tutorial/book/training DVD for Vegas 6 that presents a workflow that involves using the Trimmer in this manner as an important pre-timeline step?

I do like the Vegas interface far more than the Xpress Pro one. Xpress Pro is in dire need of a "face-lift". Even simple things like clicking and dragging feels very "spongy". Like any program, once you understand the interface you can be productive using it. I'm sure once I "get it" I'll be far more productive with Vegas than Xpress Pro.

DSE, I'll check out Gearshift, thanks.

Jeron

P.S. Once I do "get it" I'll have to write a Vegas for Xpress Pro guide myself. I might be able to get some more Xpress Pro users to convert.