Vegas rave and MOTU performance quesition

acegrube wrote on 5/24/2000, 8:27 PM
I'm running VP in my small project/writing studio with just
a 2 analog input card by LynxOne. Vegas rules IMHO. I've
seen many DAW setups and used more than I care to recall.
With the others you spend more time trying to remember
which dropdown menu has the dialog that has the button that
luanches the dialog that has the feature that you're trying
to use, knowwhatImean? By the time you find the feature
you've forgotten what you were trying to accomplish. I'm a
win32 developer and I know a great UI when I see one. VP
developers don't give in to the folks that want you to turn
this elegant interface into ProTools, or worse, Cubase.
Those tools have their place in the market, but VP is
unique. BTW: I'm spending a significant amount of time
right now with Ensoniq's PARIS system. Having a cd mixed
at a local facility running it. Very impressive, at $3600
it could be a ProTools killer. Still that's $1800 more
than I paid for VP and my hardware, and the interface on
PARIS, IMHO, is a mess - one of those let's try to look
like a mixing console concepts.

My band is putting together a practice space/studio and I'm
trying to convince the other principle to purchase Vegas
Pro and a multi-channel card. I'm wondering if some of
yous guys out there using VP and a MOTU piece (like the
2408 and or 1296) can pipe in and tell me what your track
count is for recording at what bit depth/brief description
of your sys config?

Also, anyone know if MOTU is ever going to support windows
NT.

Thanks
Erich

Comments

jaq wrote on 5/25/2000, 12:34 PM


Erich Grube wrote:
>>... I'm wondering if some of >>yous guys out there using VP and a MOTU piece (like the >>2408 and or 1296) can pipe in and tell me what your track >>count is for recording at what bit depth/brief description >>of your sys config? Erich, I recently set up a config similar to what you describe for my brother. Here's a brief description (from memory): HP Pavillion PIII, ~650 Mhz, 128MB RAM, 40GB Maxtor IDE (not SCSI). MOTU 2408MKII Alesis Studio 32 Mixer We sucessfully captured 8 tracks simultaneously, at 16 bits/44.1khz sampling rate. That made for about 400MB/song. I will need to install the Vegas 1.0b upgrade to get 24 bits working. If you are looking for more than 8 tracks, you might wait until MOTU comes out with the 1296, or start stacking MOTUs. The consensus seems to be that you are best off not trying to monitor the output from Vegas on the tracks you are recording. Monitoring the external mixer prior to the MOTU. There's also a config tweak you must perform to get things working correctly. Search in this forum for MOTU and you'll find it. Hope that helps. JAQ
User-3156 wrote on 5/25/2000, 9:20 PM


John Quarantillo wrote:
>>
>>
>>Erich Grube wrote:
>> >>>>... I'm wondering if some of >>>>yous guys out there using VP and a MOTU piece (like the >>>>2408 and or 1296) can pipe in and tell me what your track >>>>count is for recording at what bit depth/brief description >>>>of your sys config? >> >>Erich, >>I recently set up a config similar to what you describe for my >>brother. Here's a brief description (from memory): >> >>HP Pavillion PIII, ~650 Mhz, 128MB RAM, 40GB Maxtor IDE (not SCSI). >>MOTU 2408MKII >>Alesis Studio 32 Mixer >> >>We sucessfully captured 8 tracks simultaneously, at 16 bits/44.1khz >>sampling rate. That made for about 400MB/song. I will need to >>install the Vegas 1.0b upgrade to get 24 bits working. >> >>If you are looking for more than 8 tracks, you might wait until MOTU >>comes out with the 1296, or start stacking MOTUs. >> >>The consensus seems to be that you are best off not trying to monitor >>the output from Vegas on the tracks you are recording. Monitoring the >>external mixer prior to the MOTU. >> >>There's also a config tweak you must perform to get things working >>correctly. Search in this forum for MOTU and you'll find it. >> >>Hope that helps. >> >>JAQ >> SHORT ANSWER: It's the latency thing. Motu and Vegas just won't work together.
acegrube wrote on 5/25/2000, 10:48 PM

>>SHORT ANSWER: It's the latency thing. Motu and Vegas just won't
work
>>together.

Irvin
When are you experiencing latency? Do you lose sync of multiple
tracks when recording them? Or lose sync between previously recorded
info and newly recorded stuff? Do you have to reach a certain level
of project complexity(num tracks, bit depth and sample rate of same,
num effects etc) or does it happen all the time or....

Anyone else with this combo, VP and MOTU experiencing this problem?

I'm really interested in hearing some folks count coup here. What
are your max num of tracks recording/playback and your general system
config and project complexity with VP and MOTU2408 or any other multi
input hardware. Anyone able to record 8 or more tracks at
24bit/48khz at once into a project that already has say eight tracks
of same depth/freq?

Thanks!

Erich
acegrube wrote on 5/25/2000, 10:56 PM


>>Hope that helps.
>>
>>JAQ
>>

Thanks John. That does help.

Can you tell me if you are able to capture 8 tracks into a project
that already has say 8 or 16 tracks in it?
mm wrote on 5/26/2000, 5:45 AM
Sirs: I am running VP and MOTU 2408 flawlessly with a custom built
Pentium 3 450, 128mb SDram, 2 identical IBM 13.5 gig hard drives(7200
rpms), and an Abit motherboard! What seems to be the problem? I must
also submit, I am recording to Tascam DA-88s first and recording them
directly into Vegas Pro 16 tracks at a time, all at once! No latency
problems and using the default settings! I do not have a modem, or
any other software like Microsoft Office, or any screensavers, or any
programs which run in the background....those all create problems. I
monitor through the studio mixer, also a Tascam and through the
mains, Alesis monitor 2's. The finished production goes to a Tascam
CD recorder via SCSI,a Tascam DA30 MK2 Dat via SPDIF. I do not
believe the latency issue is an issue if you take your time in
setting things up right! Like I mentioned, latency is not an issue in
my setup! So to sum it up, I record 16 tracks at once into VP
successfully! I must also add the manual for the MOTU 2408 leaves a
lot unsaid and very underdescribed with regard to setup for the
Tascam DA-88, butr after trial and error, it became clearer. I also
encountered problems while trying to record into VegasPro, but after
spending time with tech support I figured that out too. It is a shame
the manuals are not written for us, the end user, who when a song
demands to be recorded can't seem to get the "tools" to work! Maybe
someday we can use these "tools" to our advantage , quickly, without
having to reinvent the wheel!MM.

irvin gomez wrote:
>>
>>
>>John Quarantillo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Erich Grube wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>... I'm wondering if some of >>>>>>yous guys out there using VP and a MOTU piece (like the >>>>>>2408 and or 1296) can pipe in and tell me what your track >>>>>>count is for recording at what bit depth/brief description >>>>>>of your sys config? >>>> >>>>Erich, >>>>I recently set up a config similar to what you describe for my >>>>brother. Here's a brief description (from memory): >>>> >>>>HP Pavillion PIII, ~650 Mhz, 128MB RAM, 40GB Maxtor IDE (not SCSI). >>>>MOTU 2408MKII >>>>Alesis Studio 32 Mixer >>>> >>>>We sucessfully captured 8 tracks simultaneously, at 16 bits/44.1khz >>>>sampling rate. That made for about 400MB/song. I will need to >>>>install the Vegas 1.0b upgrade to get 24 bits working. >>>> >>>>If you are looking for more than 8 tracks, you might wait until >>MOTU >>>>comes out with the 1296, or start stacking MOTUs. >>>> >>>>The consensus seems to be that you are best off not trying to >>monitor >>>>the output from Vegas on the tracks you are recording. Monitoring >>the >>>>external mixer prior to the MOTU. >>>> >>>>There's also a config tweak you must perform to get things working >>>>correctly. Search in this forum for MOTU and you'll find it. >>>> >>>>Hope that helps. >>>> >>>>JAQ >>>> >> >> >>SHORT ANSWER: It's the latency thing. Motu and Vegas just won't work >>together.
mm wrote on 5/26/2000, 5:46 AM
Sirs: I am running VP and MOTU 2408 flawlessly with a custom built
Pentium 3 450, 128mb SDram, 2 identical IBM 13.5 gig hard drives(7200
rpms), and an Abit motherboard! What seems to be the problem? I must
also submit, I am recording to Tascam DA-88s first and recording them
directly into Vegas Pro 16 tracks at a time, all at once! No latency
problems and using the default settings! I do not have a modem, or
any other software like Microsoft Office, or any screensavers, or any
programs which run in the background....those all create problems. I
monitor through the studio mixer, also a Tascam and through the
mains, Alesis monitor 2's. The finished production goes to a Tascam
CD recorder via SCSI,a Tascam DA30 MK2 Dat via SPDIF. I do not
believe the latency issue is an issue if you take your time in
setting things up right! Like I mentioned, latency is not an issue in
my setup! So to sum it up, I record 16 tracks at once into VP
successfully! I must also add the manual for the MOTU 2408 leaves a
lot unsaid and very underdescribed with regard to setup for the
Tascam DA-88, butr after trial and error, it became clearer. I also
encountered problems while trying to record into VegasPro, but after
spending time with tech support I figured that out too. It is a shame
the manuals are not written for us, the end user, who when a song
demands to be recorded can't seem to get the "tools" to work! Maybe
someday we can use these "tools" to our advantage , quickly, without
having to reinvent the wheel!MM.

irvin gomez wrote:
>>
>>
>>John Quarantillo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Erich Grube wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>... I'm wondering if some of >>>>>>yous guys out there using VP and a MOTU piece (like the >>>>>>2408 and or 1296) can pipe in and tell me what your track >>>>>>count is for recording at what bit depth/brief description >>>>>>of your sys config? >>>> >>>>Erich, >>>>I recently set up a config similar to what you describe for my >>>>brother. Here's a brief description (from memory): >>>> >>>>HP Pavillion PIII, ~650 Mhz, 128MB RAM, 40GB Maxtor IDE (not SCSI). >>>>MOTU 2408MKII >>>>Alesis Studio 32 Mixer >>>> >>>>We sucessfully captured 8 tracks simultaneously, at 16 bits/44.1khz >>>>sampling rate. That made for about 400MB/song. I will need to >>>>install the Vegas 1.0b upgrade to get 24 bits working. >>>> >>>>If you are looking for more than 8 tracks, you might wait until >>MOTU >>>>comes out with the 1296, or start stacking MOTUs. >>>> >>>>The consensus seems to be that you are best off not trying to >>monitor >>>>the output from Vegas on the tracks you are recording. Monitoring >>the >>>>external mixer prior to the MOTU. >>>> >>>>There's also a config tweak you must perform to get things working >>>>correctly. Search in this forum for MOTU and you'll find it. >>>> >>>>Hope that helps. >>>> >>>>JAQ >>>> >> >> >>SHORT ANSWER: It's the latency thing. Motu and Vegas just won't work >>together.
User-3156 wrote on 5/26/2000, 6:43 AM


Erich Grube wrote:
>>
>>>>SHORT ANSWER: It's the latency thing. Motu and Vegas just won't
>>work
>>>>together.
>>
>>Irvin
>>When are you experiencing latency? Do you lose sync of multiple
>>tracks when recording them? Or lose sync between previously recorded
>>info and newly recorded stuff? Do you have to reach a certain level
>>of project complexity(num tracks, bit depth and sample rate of same,
>>num effects etc) or does it happen all the time or....
>>
>>Anyone else with this combo, VP and MOTU experiencing this problem?
>>
>> I'm really interested in hearing some folks count coup here. What
>>are your max num of tracks recording/playback and your general
system
>>config and project complexity with VP and MOTU2408 or any other
multi
>>input hardware. Anyone able to record 8 or more tracks at
>>24bit/48khz at once into a project that already has say eight tracks
>>of same depth/freq?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>Erich


Erich:
In the most simplistic terms, latency is the time elapsed between the
moment you play a sound and the moment you hear it coming back from
your system. Motu will blame Sonic Foundry, and SonicFoundry will
blame Motu; but the bottom line is : The ONLY way to get them to work
together is by recording your tracks using something else (Cakewalk,
Cubase, SawPro, Samplitude, etc) and THEN tranferring them to Vegas,
where you can do your final mix. If this is suitable to you, then go
ahead and work like this. Many people are doing it already.
Possible solution: Get a soundcard and software with ASIO
support. Best combo out there for your money AS OF NOW: Nuendo &
Digi9652 card by Steinberg ( same card as the Project Hammerfall).This
is specially usefull in hybrid set-ups ( ADAT+ hard disk recording,
for example) where RELIABLE SYNC is a MUST.
Good luck...



MixNut wrote on 5/26/2000, 9:34 AM
I'm running a 1224 with VEGAS on a custom PIII733...I've not
experienced any "unworkable" problems...I use MOTU's CueMix for
monitoring foldback...It works fine...

Vegas 2.0 SUPPOSEDLY fixes all known latency issues with the MOTU
anyhow...

Not sure why anyone would assert that the MOTU "simply doesn't work
with VEGAS..."?





irvin gomez wrote:
>>
>>
>>Erich Grube wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>SHORT ANSWER: It's the latency thing. Motu and Vegas just won't
>>>>work
>>>>>>together.
>>>>
>>>>Irvin
>>>>When are you experiencing latency? Do you lose sync of multiple
>>>>tracks when recording them? Or lose sync between previously
recorded
>>>>info and newly recorded stuff? Do you have to reach a certain
level
>>>>of project complexity(num tracks, bit depth and sample rate of
same,
>>>>num effects etc) or does it happen all the time or....
>>>>
>>>>Anyone else with this combo, VP and MOTU experiencing this
problem?
>>>>
>>>> I'm really interested in hearing some folks count coup here.
What
>>>>are your max num of tracks recording/playback and your general
>>system
>>>>config and project complexity with VP and MOTU2408 or any other
>>multi
>>>>input hardware. Anyone able to record 8 or more tracks at
>>>>24bit/48khz at once into a project that already has say eight
tracks
>>>>of same depth/freq?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks!
>>>>
>>>>Erich
>>
>>
>>Erich:
>>In the most simplistic terms, latency is the time elapsed between
the
>>moment you play a sound and the moment you hear it coming back from
>>your system. Motu will blame Sonic Foundry, and SonicFoundry will
>>blame Motu; but the bottom line is : The ONLY way to get them to
work
>>together is by recording your tracks using something else
(Cakewalk,
>>Cubase, SawPro, Samplitude, etc) and THEN tranferring them to
Vegas,
>>where you can do your final mix. If this is suitable to you, then
go
>>ahead and work like this. Many people are doing it already.
>>Possible solution: Get a soundcard and software with ASIO
>>support. Best combo out there for your money AS OF NOW: Nuendo &
>>Digi9652 card by Steinberg ( same card as the Project
Hammerfall).This
>>is specially usefull in hybrid set-ups ( ADAT+ hard disk recording,
>>for example) where RELIABLE SYNC is a MUST.
>>Good luck...
>>
>>
>>
>>
acegrube wrote on 5/26/2000, 11:13 AM


David wrote:
>>I'm running a 1224 with VEGAS on a custom PIII733...I've not
>>experienced any "unworkable" problems...I use MOTU's CueMix for
>>monitoring foldback...It works fine...

That's what I want to hear. David, are you recording directly into
VP or using some intermediate step, like recording to an ADAT then
piping into VP? What about track count?

Thanks to all for the info. I was beginning to wonder if the only
serious multi-track use for VP was as a mixing tool, but not during
the tracking phase.

Erich
pwppch wrote on 5/26/2000, 11:17 AM
I will try to dig into this a bit. Warning this is long, so if you
get bored easily.....

Latency can be defined in different ways based on the context in
which you are discussing it. I will attempt to define how we look at
it.

Latency during playback:

The time between moving faders, fx parameters, or any mixing actions
and hearing the change is the playback latency.

All audio hardware that are using Wave API based drivers involve a
latency during playback. When you stream audio to the hardware you
have to buffer some audio to the hardware while the application is
building the next buffers to be queued. Once you hand over a buffer
of audio data to the hardware, you can't touch it. The goal is to
make the size of these buffers as small as possible so that 1) the
hardware has enough to play while the app is preparing the next
buffer to be queued and 2) queue the next buffer in time so that the
audio hardware has new data available when the previous buffer
completes. If this doesn't happen, you hear gaps in audio.

The smaller the buffers, the more "realtime" faders and fx changes
feel and hear. Larger buffers make mixing actions feel sluggish and
unresponsive.

By default Vegas has a latency buffer of .25 secs. This buffer is
actually split in two, so the actually hardware latency is half this.
This setting provides reasonable realtime response to moving faders
and hearing the changes. The buffering can be varied from 10 msec to
2 secs.

There are other factors that can introduce a larger latency during
playback. The best example is the use of Acoustic Mirror as and
assignable FX or Bus FX. Mirror will introduce a latency equal to the
impulse file being used. If the impluse file is 3 seconds, the this
becomes the overall latency of any source routed through Mirror. Why?
In order for Mirror to do its magic, it needs at least as much audio
as its impulse file to process before it produces any output.


Monitoring input Latency:
The time it takes to hear what is being recorded in realtime.

First, Vegas does not permit this. Why? Because we believe any
latency that would introduced would be unacceptable.

To record audio you must supply a buffer to the hardware, which the
hardware fills in realtime. By the time the hardware/driver returns
the buffer to the application, the time it was captures has passed.
If you want to take this input and immediataly stream it back out,
you have to buffer it again to the hardware which will add more
latency. What you hear is the audio playing behind realtime.
Unacceptable.

We let the hardware perform monitoring. The problem with this is no
realtime fx on input. It is a limitation, but a limitation that we
have to live with as the alternate solution is usless in our opinion.

(Before someone jumps on me...)
Yes ASIO permits a lower latency, but there is no such thing as zero
latency. I have seen claims of 10 ms and even 5 ms latency with ASIO
drivers. ASIO does permit the control of hardware monitoring. This is
not the same thing. It has the same limitations as telling the
hardware through its control applet to perform monitoring.

Recording offset latency:

When doing Simultaneous Record Playback, the new recorded tracks are
not aligned in time with the existing tacks. The new tracks are
offset late in time (It is rare that the new audio is early, but it
can happen.)

Most hardware will introduce some latency when recording and playing
back in realtime. This minimum latency is introduced by A/D
conversions and can vary from 1-5 ms. What this appears as after
recording is that the exiting tracks and new tracks are not lined up
perfectly by this offset. In general the A/D latency is acceptable to
most and is just part of the DAW world. Some will not tolerate event
the A/D latencies.

Some applications permit the user to compensate for this. Vegas 1.0
does not. Vegas 2.0 does. More on this below.

The MOTU 2408 specific problem is introduced by the hardware/driver
implemention and is based on the hardware buffer settings. The
latency introduced could be as much as 400 ms depending on the
hardware buffer settings. Terrible! The Vegas 1.0 solution was to
manually shift the new events back in time to line up with the
existing tracks.

There is another solution that MOTU implemented to solve the problem
for Cakewalk Audio Pro users. It involves a setting in a motu
specific ini type file. This fix basically tells the driver to drop
samples inorder to match output position to input. It works in
general, but it forces one to set the record start point a little
farther back than the actual point desired.

In our opinion MOTU implemented this incorrectly. In their opinion
we - and others - did it wrong. So be it. Since we realized that
MOTU was not going to address the problem, we have added a fix for
Vegas that will appear in Vegas Video and Vegas Audio 2.0. It fixes
not only the MOTU 2408 problem but permits the user to deal with even
the A/D offset problem if desired. It is very flexible.

Peter