Video Card Assistance needed

Rednroll wrote on 3/3/2005, 10:33 PM

Ok, here's where I'm at in weighing out what I want to do as far as a video card. I've got it narrowed down to 2 cards as of now, unless anyone can give me a better solution.

Ultimately, here's what I want to achieve. I want to be able to run Vegas with a dual monitor LCD setup and then also be able to send the Video Preview window to a video monitor (ie NTSC TV output). Also, I would like to be able to capture Video via a composite input, because I have family video tapes (ie VHS), that I'ld like to capture on my PC and then composite edit them together in Vegas.

Option 1: Matrox P650
This card looks to give me my output requirements with an additonal purchase of an NTSC expansion card. So I can do VGA+VGA+TV output. What it doesn't give me is a way to capture a Composite/S-video input.

Option 2: ATI ALL-IN-WONDER 9600
This card has dual monitor support, a TV monitor out, and also has a composite/S-video input. It also has an MPEG encoder, which is a plus so I don't necessarily have to capture to a large AVI file. The part I'm unsure of is that it looks to be dual head supported, so for my output requirements I'm either stuck with VGA+VGA output, or VGA+TV output, and what believe I need is VGA+VGA+TV output. I could be wrong in this assumption, but it's not clear as day by reading the specifications on ATI's website.

So right now, I'm leaning towards the Matrox P650, but what I'm wondering, is there a video capture card that I can purchase in additon to this that will allow me to capture a composite video input for recording my VHS tapes? This would be my preferred solution. I don't want to buy a firewire card, where I need an external camera to do the composite to firewire conversion, because this is obviously an expensive purchase for this feature. Or is there some other less expensive device that will allow me to do the conversion of Composite video input to firewire? Does anyone own an ATI All-and-wonder 9600 and confirm my assumption is correct, where I can't do a VGA+VGA+TV output?

Thanks for any assistance,
Red

Comments

Spot|DSE wrote on 3/3/2005, 10:42 PM

AVOID the All in Wonder! It has serious issues in many video setups.
I'd recommend the Matrox for your duallie monitors, and NTSC for some things. Vegas currently doens't take advantage of the NTSC out, but MSP, After Effects, Combustion, and a few other apps do. Sonar does too. Vegas really only does correct output via Firewire.

For capturing, if you need analog in, I'd look at the Canopus ADVC 1394. It's a 1394 card with Canopus excellent conversion built into the card. The MPEG encoder on the ATI isn't very good, you'll do better with a 99.00 ADS card (which is a very good hardware encoder) www.canopus.com The Canopus card also uses the Canopus codec for encoding analog to DV, and it's an outstanding codec, just as good as Vegas codec is.

One advantage of the ATI is it has MPEG Decoding on the card where the Matrox doesn't. This does save some weight on the processor when decoding MPEG if you'll be viewing HDV streams. For watching DVDs and so forth, it doesn't really matter much, IMO.

Rednroll wrote on 3/4/2005, 1:39 AM

Thanks, the Matrox it is and then I'll look at picking up a Canapus card.

goshep wrote on 3/4/2005, 7:39 AM

Hehe. My first foray into editing was with an ATI All-In-Wonder. I found myself WONDERING why I ever thought it would work. My video looked like something captured from a cell phone.
Another affordable option is a Digital 8 camcorder via firewire. Works like a Canopus ADVC-100 and a mini-deck in one.
As far as the dual-head card...if you're on a budget, two el cheapo PCI cards will work as well (unless of course you need hardware acceleration for other apps.)
Just thought I'd chime in late. Spot's always right. I'm always cheap.

B.Verlik wrote on 3/4/2005, 11:33 AM

Also, not any Digital 8 camera has the "Pass-through" feature you need to transfer video. A few will make you record onto digital tape first, then you can transfer the tape. True "Pass-through" is what you want to keep things very simple. The more expensive Sony's have this feature and you can pick them up used on Ebay. Be forewarned, that the slightly older ones with the 1/4" CCD chips are the most desireable and the prices of used ones usually hover around $300 or more. So far my used one seems to work just as good as my original, but you never know. Plus, it never hurts to have an extra Digital 8, as they take a pretty decent picture for what they are.

musman wrote on 3/4/2005, 6:26 PM

Rednroll, I really think you should keep whatever card you've got if it works and buy either a camcorder with pass through or a canopus transcoder as advised above. If I remember correctly, do didn't have true external preview and this would give it to you. I'd be very surprised if the Matrox is much less than one of these 2 options.

Rednroll wrote on 3/6/2005, 2:56 PM

Keeping what I got isn't an option, since I'm building a new system and right now I am trying to figure out which video card will give me my dual monitor support first and foremost. TV in and out are secondary features. Does the Canopus transcoder have TV in and out ability? Can I send the Vegas Preview window directly out to this card? What's the Canopus website where I can look at these for more information? Today I went to a local retail store and they had the Nvidia Gefore FX 5200 256MB DDR 8x AGP card for $90. This seems reasonably priced. It looks to have MPEG-2 decoder H/W assistance and 3D rendering and 2D rendering engines, plus another 128MB of memory over the Matrox card. It has one DVI and one VGA out as well as an S-video out, although it's only dual head. But it says it's control software allows easy switching if I wanted to configure the system to do VGA+S-video out momentarily. I like the thought, that it's at a local retail store, so I can easily return it if it doesn't suite my needs. Is this a viable option, or is it more of kids/gamers card in comparison to the Matrox P650, where I should also run away from this option? Anyone have experience with this card? I like the Canopus recommendation, because I won't have to look for the camera everytime my wife decides to borrow it and it won't take up room sitting on my work desk and being accidentally bumped off the desk.

Thanks for the assistance,
Red

BillyBoy wrote on 3/6/2005, 3:17 PM

While its a older card the Matrox G550 is a dual video card and will support two computer monitors easily, assuming you're going to run XP. If you think you'll also get into Borris or AfterEffects who want a better video card that supports the video card doing more of the work taking some of the load off the CPU. With Vegas only, its not a issue.

If you using an external monitor for color correciton, level checking, then you want a external monitor (not a 2nd computer monitor) and for that you need either a D/A (digital to Analog) card like the Canopus plus a firewire card or you can use many digital cameras that support pass through and accept firewire in/out letting the camera do double duly as the A/D converter allowing you to connect to your external monitor that way and still be able to "print to tape" or capture from your camera. Using firewire this way (either a camera or a A/D box like the Canopus) the Vegas preview window will appear on the external monitor.

Generally you want to avoid using any video card to output or input from Vegas. Results usually are inferior.

So to recap if you're building a new system:

Shopping list:

1. a firewire card (if not supported directrly mother baord^) $30

2. EITHER a A/D converter like the Canopus or a spare camera with A/D support

3. Graphic card (you only need a dual version if you want two monitors, not if you want a single computer monitor and a external monitor for color correction unless you also want to spread out your desktop, then a second computer monitor is nice.

* even if your motherboard comes with a firewire connection is may not be 100% compliant (mine isn't) so you'll still need a external firewire card to plug into a slot in your computer if you're not using a spare camera as A/D.

** The Canopus cards come in several flavors. The cheaper ones only serve as a A/D converter. Newer ones like the 300 also provide video noise reduction and hardware filtering. A nice feature is you work with "noisy" video like from a VHS tape or some beat up source file.

Liam_Vegas wrote on 3/6/2005, 3:21 PM

I would recommend you don't buy a card for it's ability to output s-video. The Vegas "external" preview feature can ONLY be sent out via firewire attached deck, camera or "converter box" (ADVC 300 etc).

Those video cards with svideo out merely allow you to "extend" the desktop out onto a TV (just like adding another PC monitor). You can't do reliable color correction or check for undercan/overscan while previewing onto a TV attached in this way either.

Spot|DSE wrote on 3/6/2005, 3:38 PM

Just to reiterate, the Canopus ADVC 1394, is a converter card with standard video/audio outputs, just like the ADVC 100 box, except it's in a card that sits in the PC. It has software to accompany it if you'd like to tweak on input. Vegas sees it just fine as an output, and feeds an external monitor straight from the Y/C or composite output.

Rednroll wrote on 3/6/2005, 3:43 PM

Thank you BB, that's the part I'm missing, is that I actually needed a Firewire port to use the Canopus because I'm unfamiliar with this device. I thought it was a PCI card that had A/D and D/A for video. Thus that's why I was asking for a website to see what my options where. So, what I'll probably do when shopping for a motherboard is to try and find one that has a firewire port, or I'll have to get a firewire card. So anyone have that Canopus link for me, so I can see if I can find something that has A/D and D/A capabilities for 1. Recording VHS and 2. sending to an external monitor? It looks like I'll go with the Nvidia card, since it has the dual monitor support and seems to have a lot of horse power behind it if I need it, and just ignore that S-video output. Unless, I hear some Vegas horror stories and that the quality stinks. The specs look good, but of course they look good on the ATI cards too. I won't be using this system for PC gaming, games are just ludachrist on any audio based DAW, that's now expanding to video work.

Rednroll wrote on 3/6/2005, 3:45 PM

"Just to reiterate, the Canopus ADVC 1394, is a converter card"
So it is a card? Is there a Canopus card or external box that does both A/D and D/A? Or maybe I'm asking the wrong question? I did find the Canopus website and took a browse through their products. I don't see the 1394 card in their products. What is the cheapest option that will allow me to 1. Capture from a VHS tape and 2. View the Video preview window in Vegas on an external monitor?

Spot|DSE wrote on 3/6/2005, 4:11 PM

It's a PCI card with a breakout cable. They also have a bay for it, allowing you to have front-mount access, similar to how the Rex used to work. The bay is optional, I don't know the cost.
Can capture DV, MPEG1 or MPEG 2.
I don't know if it still comes bundled with Vegas or not. It used to. You'll have to visit their site to find out.

Rednroll wrote on 3/6/2005, 4:57 PM

So just to be clear, the Canopus 1394 PCI card you're referring too doesn't allow me to export the preview window to an external monitor correct?

To do this I would need something like the ADVC110, which would then connect to a Firewire port?
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ADVC_selection_guide/pm_advc_selection.asp

BillyBoy wrote on 3/6/2005, 5:05 PM

Both the Canopus 100 or 300 are "black boxes" and sit on your desk. They are small about 6 inches by 5 inches. A lot here got a #100 about $260 street. Its been around awhile. The #300, newer, is about $460.

You can use either the 100 or 300 to serve both as the converter between your PC and firewire card to connect your external monitor and it doubles as the A/D converter to take a feed off your VHS tape deck and convert it to digital or the other way around. If I remember right the 100 only converts, it won't improve the signal. The 300 has noise reduction (nice) and on the fly "improves" the analog signal as it converts it to digital. Comes with software where you can customize how it "improves" things or you can let the box do it itself by setting a bunch of DIP switches.

theforce wrote on 3/6/2005, 5:06 PM

Red,

Whatever you do, I'd recommend you get yourself a firewire IEEE1394 card (or mobo with firewire already onboard) for capturing video. The card is very inexpensive, and it's the preferred way to capture video, especially if you plan on editing it. You definitely don't want to be editing MPEG2 which is the way most graphics card would bring it in. Also, when you import analog video through a firewire based card you avoid getting the audio and video out of sync. BTW, I have a an nVidia card with s-video out, but to have it output a TV signal through it, I lose my PC monitor image!

Rednroll wrote on 3/6/2005, 5:22 PM

The ADVC 100 looks like more what I'm willing to spend, although the noise reduction of the 300 does sound very attractive. Checking out prices on Ebay, I see the 100 goes for about $200, while the newer 110 goes for about $250. the ADVC 1394 goes for $215, although I'm still not for sure if this will output video. Now, what the hecks the difference between the 110 and the 100? I think I'm almost through asking questions......sorry this video stuff and my lack of knowledge in this department drives me nuts sometimes. So if anyone knows what the difference is between the #110 and the #100, then I'll weigh out the price vs feature difference and make my choice.

Thanks for everyone's help,
Red

Spot|DSE wrote on 3/6/2005, 7:24 PM

Red, the ADVC will allow you to preview on ext, but it's more than the 100 and a 1394 card together. The 300 is a great nod to the bottom end of the professional cards, it's quite good too. I don't know the diff between the 100 and the 110, except that I think the 110 is an upgraded/newer version of the 100. Never bought a 110, because the 100's we have work great. (we use 2 on the road)

Coursedesign wrote on 3/6/2005, 7:36 PM

nVidia cards are the best cards for NLEs overall today, IMHO.

Rock solid drivers, excellent dual (and on some models triple) monitor support, outstanding OpenGL implementation, onboard MPEG decoder and all at very good prices.

Only caution is with PNY nVidia cards, as their "lifetime warranty" expires on release of a newer version of your card, which could be next month...

Rednroll wrote on 3/6/2005, 9:05 PM

"Red, the ADVC will allow you to preview on ext, but it's more than the 100 and a 1394 card together. "

Damn Spot, I thought I had everything figured out on the lingo until you mentioned that statement. Aren't they all "ADVC" and the number following refers to the actual model of the ADVC box/card?

Thanks for the feedback Coursedesign, the one thing that kind of interested me in the Nvidia card for my setup was that one connector was a DVI and the other was a VGA connector. Currently I have one Dell 17" LCD E173FP with an analog VGA connector. My plan was to purchase another one of these, but they also make the same monitor which is digital with a DVI connector, for a few bucks more. I asked awhile back the differences in VGA (Analog) vs DVI (digital) monitors on this forum as to what the differences are, but I got no feedback. I'm assuming a digital DVI monitor is better. I also realize it only takes a small adapter plugged into the video cards DVI connector to plug in a VGA monitor. The confusing part when I've been shopping for these video cards lately, is that they always seem to show the max resolution is higher when running an analog monitor. Like in the case of the Matrox card specs. 1600x1200 dual digital or 1920x1440 dual analog. Of course I'm sure this all depends on the max resolution of the monitor anyways. So anyways, I'm thinking about matching my current Dell analog LCD monitor with the digital DVI monitor same version in my setup, and I suppose I'll be able to see for myself when they're sitting side by side, which looks better and the Nvidia card will allow me to easily do this.

Chanimal wrote on 3/6/2005, 9:19 PM

I have not used the Matrox card. However, I have used the ATI All in Wonder (the original Radeon and the 9700 Pro). I have had VERY good results with this card and would not hesitate to purchase the 9600 All In Wonder (has dual monitor support, plus the video capture and TV capabilities--although not as fast (for 3d apps) as the 9700 or 9800, I would love to have it's dual monitor support--have installed it in three different machines (not my own)).

I have found that the NTSC capture has been very good with this card (about as good as can be expected from NTSC VHS or hi-8 video sources). Much better than any of my prior converter boxes. The biggest key is to customize the capture mode.

I also like the convenience of recording TV (built-in PVR).

In addition, I use it as the TV to monitor two Panasonic DVR's that are connected to my PC (instead of having to have a separate monitor to see the recording status of these two units).

I haven't had any of the video problems (what kind) that Spot refers to and I recommend it.

Coursedesign wrote on 3/6/2005, 9:55 PM

DVI carries a purely digital signal, while "VGA connectors" carry an analog component signal (RGB). Adapters exist, but not just a piece of cable.

Quality CAN be better with DVI, but often isn't.

Multisupermegafeaturecards like the ATI AIW etc. have a LOT of drivers that can get in the way of doing real work. If you don't absolutely have to have these features, forget about AIW, XP Media Center, etc.

I have been using Matrox cards since their very first card in the 1970s (1632SL), they always had very high quality. Nowadays I'm only buying nVidia cards, because they have solid drivers, high display quality, good OpenGL, MPEG decoding, and are available for a lot less.