I have tried doing uncompressed video, and just glanced at the Huffyuv codec... but it looks like both would have the same problem - HUGE files. Even a simple intro anim from Flash in uncompressed was enormous. I figured with the Vegas codec, I'd have great image quality and small file sizes. plus no more recompression would be needed to go back to tape.

I suppose I could just export uncompressed, import into Vegas, render as DV, then delete the giant uncompressed video file. But that seems so clumsy. Why doesn;t Vegas expose its codec to the system for use by other apps?

download the Matrox DV codec's. those will let you access DV codec's.

Plus, you should get used to large files. The general rule in video is large file = high quality.

I often use myself QT MPEG 4 (quality setting at max) as a transfer codec for Flash encoding. I wonder if it could do the trick in this case.

Right, though 30 sec of DV in the Vegas codec is MUCH SMALLER than 30 sec of the exact same framerate/pixel dimensions of uncompressed AVI.

yes, but it is a loss from uncompressed, no alpha, strict size constraints (720x480/486 NTSC).

I'd recommend just buying more hard drives. Huffy & Uncompressed can't really be beaten for the shear options at the highest quality (i do all my 3d renders in uncompressed & bring in to Vegas)

So Sony, how's about making that codec available?

I think most of us would be willing to drop a few bucks for the pleasure of using it in other programs (like VDUB, maybe?).

you can buy the main concept DV codec. It's said to be pretty good (but I wish the Sony one was seperate)

So... maybe the question is: Why isn't this codec 'separate' or installed as to be available to the whole system, and not just Vegas?

Because it's excellent, and SONY wants to keep control of it under their own name. They don't want people getting excellent SONY DV results from other, competing software. It's a Vegas selling point.

"It's a Vegas selling point."

No, it isn't. Did you purchase Vegas because of the DV codec? When you purchased it, did you even know it had a superior DV codec. I'm looking at my brand new, unopened box for V7 and there is no mention of a superior DV codec, or that it even saves Sony DV, just that it saves AVI.

In some ways, I understand. I can't save to Main Concept formats purchased with Vegas from other applications, but MC, as you know, sells their codecs as separate applications, as well. In the meantime, if I do something in another application that I can't do in Vegas (Deshaker comes to mind, among other things) I just want the footage to match up without me having to fudge along with color correction... again... like I have to with HuffYUV.

So - and I guess this is purely argumentative and for that I respectfully ask your forgiveness, Kelly - it can be that Sony wants to keep control of it, but no way is it a selling point, especially if it isn't marketed as such.

You make an excellent point about the color matching. While I have not gotten into the nitty gritty far enough to run into color mismatch problems, this, along with my original thoughts regarding output from other apps that I want to bring in as part of a Vegas project raise an important issue: seamless, quality workflow.

Ever since my first encounter with Vegas (Doug Spotted Eagle doing a killer version 2 demo at a tradeshow), one of the key differentiators for Vegas has been the quality/flexibility combination. Looking at the big picture, this issue of having the codec exposed to the rest of the system falls squarely within this arena. Being able to encode from other apps using Vegas codecs would ensure across the board uniformity and ease of use. All clips would match (color and other-wise) and it would *just work*. This idea of stuff effortlessly working has been a big part of my using Vegas over the years.

Is there anyone from the Vegas team who can speak to this?

2 Questions:
1) When you all mention the "Sony DV codec," when I click Render, I'm not sure what I'm looking for in the "save as type."
2) For the person who stated above that they render into QT mpeg-4 "quality setting @ max," how do you get it higher than 320 x 240?

The color matching issue is because Vegas works with 2 different color spaces:

Computer RGB; Video is in RGB form, with legal levels between 0-255.

Studio RGB; Video is still in RGB form. However, legal levels are between 16-235.

The reason for having studio RGB is this:

Video records in Y'CbCr color space, which is much "bigger' than computer RGB color space. When you convert from Y'CbCr-->RGB, then colors outside the computer RGB color space get clipped. StudioRGB is like computer RGB, except that it is a little "bigger" / it has some headroom and toeroom. Studio RGB is advantageous in that you don't get clipping of important Y'CbCr information.
For example, many DV cameras record information above legal white. In computer RGB space, these colors would get clipped.

2- Vegas is a little silly in that the default DV codec decodes to studioRGB, while most (but not necessarily all) filters are designed to work with computer RGB space.

The solution would be some smart system that automatically converts between the color spaces. For most RGB sources, computer RGB should be assumed. And for DV and sonyYUV codecs, Vegas should be able to recognize its own codecs and see that they are studioRGB space.
On output, Vegas should also automatically perform color space conversions for you.

Filter-wise, they could have switches (or a drop-down menu) to determine color space behaviour:
Force computer RGB
Force studio RGB
Auto

This does require changing the filters around a little bit.

3- You can manually perform color space conversions. Use the presets in the color corrector.
Most sources that aren't DV or sonyYUV should be converted to studioRGB.
When encoding to web, nest your project and convert that nested video to computer RGB. Most encoders (except for Vegas' MPEG2 / main concept encoder) expect computer RGB.

re: #2 there....

i think you've got it a little backwards: Vegas decodes/encodes DV to plain RGB. The content in the DV file determines what space it is, not the codec. You can easily render & import DV video with vegas that is between 0-255. Now the broadcast colors plug in can limit it all to studioRGB if you wanted, but if all the source is between that then there's no need for apply the plug in.

You can't "force" compRGB on a studio video because it's already within the 0-255 range (16-235). You can apply FX to stretch the colors out if you wanted though (so 16 = 0 & 235 = 255)

Actually, the excellent Vegas DV codec WAS the initial draw for me. I was working in Studio7 and had completed a two-hour documentary project. In browsing through the message board over there (rather necessary due to the flaky nature of that product), I came across a thread that mentioned that the Sonic Foundry NLE used a DV codec that could withstand 50 round trips with little degradation. In searching out those still images on the Sonic Foundry website I came across Vegas3, and was hooked.

I can't advise you about output options from Flash (because I don't use it) but I'd go for the highest possible quality. If this means uncompressed, so be it. As you said, just delete it afterwards.
As far as Lightwave is concerned though, don't bother rendering to a video file of any kind. Just render out individual frames (make sure to choose the 720 x 480 preset) and save them in a directory.
Make sure to select the proper frame numbering for the number of images required. For example, if your anim is 1500 images, choose the 4-number option (frame****). This is so Windows doesn't mess up your eventual import.
PNGs are preferred for Vegas but pretty much any good file format will work. Don't bother with TIFFs though as these will put a strain on your system.
Start up Vegas and go to the Import files tab. Browse to the folder with the rendered images. Click on the first image, click Open still image sequence and click OK. Set any desired options in the window that pops up and click OK. The new completed animation file will be created in a second or so. Drag this to the timeline and play it.
The advantage to doing it this way is that you don't have to mess around with codecs. Instead, you're letting Vegas do the work for you.

Mike

So does Vegas leave them as a bunch of sequential stills on the timeline, or does it actually turn them into a video clip? If it makes it a video clip, what compression is it using? Also - if it does snap up those stills and make them a single video clip, why doesn't it import Flash SWFs in the same way?

thanks for the tip, though :)

It turns the stills into a video clip in DV-AVI format.
I believe that Vegas will only import older versions of Flash but, once again, I don't use it so you'll have to take the advice of experienced Flash users.

Mike

i think you've got it a little backwards: Vegas decodes/encodes DV to plain RGB. The content in the DV file determines what space it is, not the codec.
No- it's the codec that determines how the DV essence is translated from Y'CbCr to RGB- it is either translated into computer RGB color space or studio RGB color space. Perhaps this is confusing since I may be using the phrase 'color space' differently than you do? I use it as an umbrella term to include things such as the legal range and levels used.

You can't "force" compRGB on a studio video because it's already within the 0-255 range (16-235). You can apply FX to stretch the colors out if you wanted though (so 16 = 0 & 235 = 255)
By force, I mean that you could force the filter to specifically assume computer RGB or studio RGB color space. It would not force a color space conversion... it just forces the filter to assume that the input is a particular color space / using particular levels.