Video quality deteriorates after preparation

Mauriceh9 wrote on 2/21/2008, 12:29 PM
I'm having a problem with video quality in situations where there is quite a lot of movement in the frame. I've prepared the source video in Vegas writing out an mpg 2 video that looks fine when played on my PC screen. But, when imported to Architect there are jaggies appearing along part of the picture that is moving relatively fast.

The jaggies are evident in the preview window, and are carried through to the DVD file showing up on the PC or TV screen. The problem clip contains a view of my own legs filmed as I was walking down some steps and filmed by myself with the camera pointing down. My moving legs occupy a third to a half of the frame.

Anyone got any ideas?

Maurice

Comments

johnmeyer wrote on 2/21/2008, 1:26 PM
What template did you use when rendering the MPEG-2 from Vegas? Do not EVER use the "default" template. It will produce horrible results. ALWAYS use one of the "DVD Architect" templates.

If you go to the "custom" section in the Render As dialog, you will find, on the video tab, a quality slider. That ALWAYS wants to be all the way to the right (at 31, I believe).

Also, make sure the average bitrate (if using VBR) is at least 6,000,000 (the default). You can make it 7,500,000 if you want to get better quality.
Mauriceh9 wrote on 2/22/2008, 1:22 AM
To John Meyer

Thanks for your suggestions. However, the problem seems not to be with Vegas because that produces a good mpg2 video and I have used the "Render As" settings you mentioned. I know the Vegas mpg2 is OK because I've tried playing it in a couple of different PC players and it looks fine. It's when I import it into Architect that the problem occurs. When I play the video in the preview window I get these jaggies on a particular clip that contains a lot of movement. Also on another clip where there is a pan across a building the verticals of the window frames are all wavy. The same occurs where I have a graphic of a picture frame, and when the movie zooms in quickly, the verticals again go wavy.

Most perculiar.

Maurice
johnmeyer wrote on 2/22/2008, 6:44 PM
What you see in the DVDA preview windows has no bearing on much of anything. It is a lousy preview that is not high quality, no matter what settings you use. The only way to tell what something is going to look like is to burn a test DVD (I use re-writeables) and then watch that on the target display.
Mauriceh9 wrote on 2/23/2008, 2:06 AM
To John Meyer

Yes I thought the preview window would not be a good indicator of final quality, so I did burn a DVD to review the film on the TV. The TV version exhibited the same problems of jaggies and wavy verticals as did the preview window, albeit maybe not so pronounced. So either I'm doing something dumb (quite possible) or the conversion to VOB files is not very good quality. But, I have been unable to identify any preparation settings that correct the problem.
TOG62 wrote on 2/23/2008, 3:15 AM
It's my understanding that if DVDA doesn't re-compress your video it should not be degraded during the preparation process. It might be worth checking (if you haven't already done so) in File | Optimize DVD.

Mike
Ethan Winer wrote on 2/23/2008, 12:16 PM
> I have been unable to identify any preparation settings that correct the problem. <

I'm having the exact same problem on my current project. Any movement that is medium to fast results in severe jaggies along the edges, and jitter generally over the entire frame. It's not a DVDA issue because I can see it in the rendered mpg file if I load just that file into Vegas. This has never happened for me before and I'm stymied as to what the cause is.

--Ethan
Mauriceh9 wrote on 2/24/2008, 4:54 AM
To Ethan

I have also had problems with jaggies in the mpg2 files rendered from Vegas. First thing to note is that the Vegas preview can show up jaggies that do not show up when the burned DVD is played on a TV. This as I understand it is possibly for two reasons, firstly that the Vegas preview is only using one field of the video, and secondly because the way LCD's display interlaced files is fundamentally different to CRT TV's. So the answer is to test fast moving scenes through the Vegas/Architect process to create a DVD and see what it looks like on the TV.

There is another possible reason for jaggies that is due to the settings selected in the "Render As" dialogues. You should choose the Main Concept mpg2 "Type" option, and the "Template" set to DVD Architect. Then choose the Custom option and in the "Project" tab choose Best, and the "Video" tab choose Variable Bitrate and the Two Pass option. This produced the best mpg2 file from my fast moving moving footage. But, then I've had problems with Architect that was the reason for my original post. More of which in my next post.

Maurice
Mauriceh9 wrote on 2/24/2008, 5:06 AM
To Mike

I've not been requesting that Architect re-compresses my mpg2 files. Or at least not with the settings in the Optimize DVD/Video Tab which I've set to No against the "Re-compress" option. But perhaps it's re-compressing the file in spite of this setting. In fact at one point I got an error message to say it couldn't re-compress because the bit rate was set too low. So I upped the bitrate to the maximum and the message disappeared. This suggests that Architect is re-compressing files even though it is not being called for. I'm going to try creating different mpg2 files for fast moving clips using different rendering settings in Vegas, and see how Architect responds in each case.

Maurice
bStro wrote on 2/24/2008, 6:44 AM
Or at least not with the settings in the Optimize DVD/Video Tab which I've set to No against the "Re-compress" option. But perhaps it's re-compressing the file in spite of this setting.

It's easy to tell if DVDA will be recompressing your file(s). In that same dialog (Optimize DVD), check the symbols in the Video and Audio columns on the left side of the dialog. Anything with a green checkmark is not going to be recompressed.

This suggests that Architect is re-compressing files even though it is not being called for.

Well, you may not be telling DVDA to recompress them, but that doesn't necesssarily mean recompression isn't called for. There may be something about the files themselves that requires they be recompressed. If you see a file in the Optimize DVD dialog that DVDA is going to recompress, right-click on that file in DVDA's Explorer window and choose Properties. We should be able to tell from the info listed there what DVDA does not consider to be compliant.

Rob
Ethan Winer wrote on 2/24/2008, 9:53 AM
> the "Template" set to DVD Architect. Then choose the Custom option and in the "Project" tab choose Best, and the "Video" tab choose Variable Bitrate and the Two Pass option. <

Thanks Maurice. I did that yesterday and still had the problem. But thanks for the clarification about Vegas showing only alternate fields. I always suspected that just from the way previews look, but was never sure.

I'm going to do more rendering and burning tests today to try to sort this out. If I find "the" problem I'll post it here tomorrow.

--Ethan
Ethan Winer wrote on 2/24/2008, 10:39 AM
Folks,

Once I did some controlled tests I was able to quickly figure out the problem.

I had been using the Deform plug-in on the master video bus to keep all of the video visible on my TV. My current project is mainly for my company's web site, but I wanted to make a high-quality DVD to watch in my living room. I have used Deform in the past this way without problem, so I don't know what's different this time. But removing Deform indeed stops the severe jaggies during fast motion. So I just sized down the few pieces that extended to the edges manually, and now all is well.

Anybody know why the Deform plug-in would cause motion artifacts?

--Ethan
musicvid10 wrote on 2/24/2008, 4:27 PM
I don't know about that plugin; however,
A lot of problems with interlaced video rendered with effects, pan / crop, track motion, etc. are cured by setting the "Full-resolution rendering quality" to "Best" in your Project Properties. See if that helps when using the plugin.
Ethan Winer wrote on 2/25/2008, 12:11 PM
Believe me, I already had the quality set to Best!

Thanks.

--Ethan
Mauriceh9 wrote on 3/2/2008, 4:34 AM
Just thought I should report my findings re DVD quality problems. I've done lots of tests on the clips that are causing the biggest problems. The common thread with the problems is sharply defined vertical or horizontal lines where there is movement in the frame. For instance a shot looking down at my legs descending some steps caused a lot of jaggies because coincidentally the steps were made up of small tiles with well defined lines. The jaggies were occurring at the boundary of my trousers and the tiles.

I finally concluded that the problem was not in the mpg file produced by Vegas or burned to the disc by Architect. But rather to do with the way the DVD player interpreted the file and possibly even related to the brand of the disc I burned to. I got the same result of jaggies whether the disc was played in the PC or my TV player. I did manage to effect some improvement by lowering the bit rate in the "Render As" in Vegas. It would appear that higher bit rates (above 6mps) made the problem worse. In fact I found fixed bitrates worked slightly better. To put it into context the rate of movement within the frame is not really that high compared with say filming a moving car. So it has something to do with how the decompression process deals with sharply defined moving horizontal or vertical lines/edges.

In the end I got over the problem by slowing down the rate of movement in Vegas using the Velocity Envelope feature. In fact I was able to slow the film down by 50% without any evident jerkiness. I thought this quite impressive. Across the range of problems I had, I found slowing the film down to between 75% and 50% of the original speed did the trick.

The following is a summary list of examples where the problem of jaggies occurred:
1. Shot looking down on my legs descending some steps that happened to be tiled with sharply defined horizontals and verticals.
2. Pan across a building where the jaggies showed up on the verticals of the window frames. The pan was not fast, and the jaggies were almost wavy.
3. Zoom out from a graphic frame where the jaggies showed up on the verticals. In fact the problem was not in evidence if the zoom was fast or slow, but only at an intermediate speed.
4. In a barn doors type scene transition where the verticals of the two doors created a wavy line effect which could easily be interpreted as intentional. In fact I left it as it was. This problem could possibly be overcome by changing the speed of the transition. Fortunately I don't often use this type of transition.

I see a lot of repeat posts for similar issues on this forum, and I get the feeling of reinventing the wheel on a regular basis. Perhaps some effort could be applied by Sony to create FAQ's out of any useful posts. Save a lot of time all round. I realise it is possible to do a search, but this often doesn't produce useful results.

Thanks to all for help with identifying possible solutions.

Maurice