Vimeo audio sync problems in Firefox

Shenan wrote on 3/23/2014, 8:02 PM
Hello all, I am posting this in hopes that someone with Vegas experience may have run into a similar issue and been able to resolve it. I have uploaded a nearly 14 minute video that I've edited in Vegas Pro (12 build 770) to Vimeo, and no matter what I try in terms of render settings the audio always appears to be out of sync by only a few frames.

At first I had been rendering to a DNxHD quicktime intermediate and then converting to mp4 in Handbrake, but after struggling for a while I figured it may be related to that workflow, so I went to a straightforward render to mp4 directly in vegas (which had worked for me in other projects in the past), but the problem persisted.

I spoke to Vimeo support and they sent me a checklist, most of which I had already done. However, that list did help me discover something new: I found out that the problem is only happening in Firefox! I have tried Firefox, Chrome, and Internet Explorer browsers on 3 PCs so far, and on every one of them the video is in sync in Chrome and IE, but out of sync in Firefox.

If I upload it to youtube the video is in sync on all 3 browsers, which leads me to believe that it is a problem with Vimeo's player, but I also have older uploads shot on the same camera, same settings, and edited and rendered in Vegas (older versions) that don't have this problem on Vimeo. I wonder if there is just some inconsistency with this specific Vegas project that is causing the player to break?

Has anyone ever run into a problem like this and found a solution, or do you have any suggestions of things that I can try to do to resolve it? I have already tried rendering at various video and audio bitrates, but have not tried changing the video frame rate (23.976) or audio sample rate (48kHz) from the source footage.

My next step is to look closely at each cut in the project to make sure that none of them are sitting outside of frame boundaries, which will be a pain.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 3/23/2014, 8:12 PM
1. What is your source video? MediaInfo readout, please.
2. Were you sure to use only PCM audio in your DNxHD intermediate?
3. Where is the link to your video? Many of us have Firefox and would be happy to test it.
Shenan wrote on 3/23/2014, 9:32 PM
Thanks, musicvid, for the reply!

1. I will paste the media info at the end of this message.
2. When I selected quicktime and DNxHD, I only had odd audio codecs to select, so I chose uncompressed. However, the DNxHD intermediate and Handbrake compression can be eliminated from the equation because I got the same results rendering directly to MediaConcept AVC mp4 in Vegas. I will be happy if I can get it resolved with a direct Vegas render, without the extra step of intermediate and handbrake.
3. Here's the latest upload that I've made: https://vimeo.com/89858057 - you can see the sync issue on any face to face interview clip. The first one is right around 1:10.

One more thing I should mention before the mediainfo output. I did use a couple of clips that had a different frame rate (29.97), but they were much later in the timeline from where the sync issue is first noticed. Oh, also, all the video is from a Panasonic GH2, if that makes a difference.

Thanks!

General
ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : \Media\Card1\PRIVATE\AVCHD\BDMV\STREAM\00001.MTS
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 63.7 MiB
Duration : 23s 987ms
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 22.3 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 24.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 24s 66ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 21.2 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 21.7 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.426
Stream size : 60.8 MiB (95%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 24s 96ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 565 KiB (1%)

Text
ID : 4608 (0x1200)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : PGS
Codec ID : 144
Duration : 23s 584ms

musicvid10 wrote on 3/24/2014, 6:31 PM
Shenan,
That address you posted has never gone live.
Want to check on that?
Shenan wrote on 3/24/2014, 8:50 PM
musicvid,

I had misunderstood the vimeo privacy settings. Please try again, with a password of "vegas". Thanks!
johnmeyer wrote on 3/24/2014, 9:09 PM
Was the audio out of sync when you played the rendered file on your computer prior to uploading to Vimeo? Or, is it only out of sync on Vimeo? If the latter, then if you can provide a link to that video (and make sure to enable downloading so we can also download the original file) it should be easy to determine if this is a problem with Vimeo.

I have always liked the spatial fidelity (the "clarity," for lack of a better word) you get on Vimeo, but I also have always had problems with the temporal quality. This usually shows up on my computer as dropped frames, or short pauses, but I have seen some sync issues as well.
musicvid10 wrote on 3/24/2014, 10:19 PM
Provide a public link and a source download link, please. This is not rocket science.
Shenan wrote on 3/25/2014, 4:00 PM
Sorry all, I was trying to avoid posting the video publicly, so protected it with a password, but since that seems to be causing problems I have made it public, at the same URL: https://vimeo.com/89858057

John, I have made the video downloadable as well. To answer your questions, the video works fine locally before uploading. In fact, it works fine in IE and Google Chrome. It only has sync problems in Firefox. But it's not my computer because I've tried it on 3 different computers, both at home and at work.

Good points about the temporal quality, I have noticed some stutters on Vimeo in the past as well, when watching other people's videos.

johnmeyer wrote on 3/25/2014, 5:15 PM
The audio is out of sync on Vimeo (the audio is ahead of the video), but when I download the file, it plays OK in Vegas.

A quick Google search turns up a HUGE number of complaints about this problem on Vimeo. I didn't have time to look at many of them to see if there is a workaround. I suspect that there may be some encoder setting (in Vegas) that can be changed to avoid the issue, or perhaps some sort of quick change applied to the video (like "MP4 Faststart"), prior to uploading to Vimeo.

Here is a link to lots of recent posts in the Vimeo forum:

Audio & Video Out of Sync

I do not have Quicktime installed on this computer.

If it were me, I'd upload to YouTube and use that instead.
Shenan wrote on 3/25/2014, 11:05 PM
Thanks for checking, John, I appreciate it. Yes, I had done some web searching for this problem before posting here and noticed that others had experienced similar issues, but didn't find any conclusions.

I'm definitely considering going with youtube instead with this video because it stays in sync on all 3 browsers I tried. Thanks again.
Steve Mann wrote on 3/25/2014, 11:10 PM
Two things.
First - I want to see this movie!
Second, I hadn't noticed any sync problems with Firefox because it's not my primary (or secondary) browser. I just use it for a web camera watching my front door.
But the mismatch is definitely there - on Firefox. Looks perfect in Chrome.
musicvid10 wrote on 3/25/2014, 11:30 PM
There is absolutely nothing in your source that should be causing this, but it is quite easy to spot on Vimeo. Even on FF14.
The version aired on Vimeo plays perfectly too, when downloaded and played in VLC.
Got to be some streaming issue with Vimeo's servers? I doubt it's anything you have control over.
Shenan wrote on 3/26/2014, 10:37 AM
Thank you for checking, Steve and musicvid,

Steve, cool, just follow the director, Carla Dauden, on Vimeo. I'm sure she will post it there eventually (soon?) after it's finished the festival circuit.

Music, that's what I'm thinking as well. I'm going to get back to Vimeo support to ask them to dig further and review the source video.

The problem doesn't always happen. I have an older video on vimeo shot on the same camera and also edited in Vegas (older version) that plays in sync on all browsers, which is what lead me to believe that it might be something under my control.

Thanks again everyone for checking it out. I will make the video private again for now. If the problem is resolved I will make it public again.
musicvid10 wrote on 3/26/2014, 11:10 AM
The more I think about this, the more I think Vimeo's delivery servers are messed up.
johnmeyer wrote on 3/26/2014, 1:20 PM
musicvid10 (and others): Can something like this happen if the MP4 isn't encoded with the "right" header? I know that earlier versions of Vegas didn't include the "fast start" information, and that some of your YouTube tutorials (I think it was you) showed how to use MP4 Fast Start to remux the MP4, without re-encoding, so as to include this information.

One clue (and it may be a red herring) as to what is going on is that when I first downloaded the MP4, I wasn't signed in to Vimeo, and all it would let me download, as a guest, was their version of the 1280x720 video which was only 60 MB. When I played this in VLC, or when I put it on the timeline in Vegas, it was 3x the length of the original, but the last 2/3 was blank. This seems to indicated that Vimeo was having a problem determining the proper length. If you go back to the OP's Vimeo link, I'm sure you can find the download link for this version of the file and verify this. [edit]Oh, he's already taken down the video ...

Since not all Vimeo users are experiencing the problem, this leads me to believe that there is something odd in the encoding settings that is causing heartburn (technical term) to the Vimeo encoder.

Shenan wrote on 3/26/2014, 3:13 PM
I'm leaning toward this being some very subtle issue with my project that is triggering a bug in Vimeo's encoder or their player. This project doesn't cause this issue on Youtube, but on the other hand, my other projects don't cause this issue on Vimeo. So Vimeo just doesn't like this specific project, which leads me to believe that their encoder or player is more fragile/sensitive/finicky than Youtube's.

John, I'm guessing it's deeper than just a fast start issue in Vegas, because I had been fighting this problem for a while with a Handbrake MP4 encode from a Vegas DNxHD render of this project. I played with every setting I could think of, and then gave up hoping that a direct Vegas render would work (it had worked in the past with other projects). Sorry I took the video down, let me know if you want me to open it again.

Vimeo support hasn't been able to help much so far, focusing on my browser and explaining that subtle differences in browser playback are inherent to online video and out of their control. I can kind of understand that. I may try some experiments with the edit timeline or rendering just a section of the timeline this weekend, and will update this thread if I ever resolve it.

Thank you all once again!