VP12 Ingest/Editing Best Practices

Cliff Etzel wrote on 1/30/2014, 5:20 PM
So specifics: I jumped ship from Vegas Pro to Adobe's apps due to the number of instability issues I had back at that time. I'm revisiting post production apps and wanted to get insights from the more experienced editors like John Cline, Vic Milt and such on best practices for stability and efficiency in post when editing DSLR video files and rendering out since they seem to have none of the issues many complain about here on the forums.

I shoot exclusively Canon DSLR footage using the Technicolor Cine Profile and magic Lantern hacks on my DSLR's as I am a solo shooter/editor for the forseeable future. Will be concentrating on Digital Storytelling and short doc projects with the occasional commercial if asked to shoot one. I run dual sync audio but now experimenting with in camera audio due to Magic Lantern hack.

Working in Adobe Apps is still pulling teeth for me even after having switched back at PPro CS5 and currently edit with CS6, but I've kept Vegas Pro 12/Sound Forge 10 up to date but have yet to commit to any projects on it - importing ppro project files still doesn't work very well so I can't import correctly to stress test and see where things go wonky - if they do at all.

The big hoopla that advocates of Adobe's products is the handling of native h.264 Canon DSLR video files and the supposed ability to pull every last bit of image quality out of them as opposed to competing NLE's even when doing pretty substantial pixel pushing in grading, etc.. I haven't delivered to broadcast yet as my work is typically delivered to clients for web distribution.

I keep my plugins at a bare minimum, PluralEyes and Magic Bullet Looks, the latter on rare occasion as I've found it's somewhat unstable - no matter what NLE I've used it in.

Sorry for the long request, but I thought I'd revisit again.

MY hardware specs are listed in my profile.

Comments

Cliff Etzel wrote on 1/30/2014, 6:15 PM
Here's an example of an attempt at a simple PPro Project Import and the errors that result:

Exception Message: startIndex cannot be larger than length of string.
Parameter name: startIndex
Stack Trace: at System.String.InternalSubStringWithChecks(Int32 startIndex, Int32 length, Boolean fAlwaysCopy)
at VegasScripts.VegasCommon.GetImportMediaPath(String pathInImportedFile, List`1 mediaLocations)
at VegasScripts.AEImporter.ReadChildren(XmlElement elt, MediaBin parent)
at VegasScripts.AEImporter.ReadChildren(XmlElement elt, MediaBin parent)
at VegasScripts.AEImporter.ReadChildren(XmlElement elt, MediaBin parent)
at VegasScripts.AEImporter.Import(String fileName, Vegas vegas, LogCallback log, Action createUndoBlock, Action disposeUndoBlock)
at VegasScripts.ProjectInterchangeImporter.HandleInvokedInternal(String openDialogName, String openDialogExt, String undoBlockName, IImporter importer)

Any ideas as to what's going on here?
NormanPCN wrote on 1/30/2014, 7:47 PM
The big hoopla that advocates of Adobe's products is the handling of native h.264 Canon DSLR video files


Vegas natively handles DSLR MOV files using its own codec. It does not go through Quicktime, and it's H.264 decoder for these files. I have seen this and Sony claims such on their website.

I have not tested permutations but MOV files with AVC/H.264 video and PCM audio are handled natively in Vegas. Vegas uses the Mainconcept decoder and last I heard so did Adobe. I don't know about CS6.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 2/1/2014, 12:29 PM
Not sure why my request has not gotten any more responses so thought I'd bump this topic to see if there are any others who would be willing to chime in.
ddm wrote on 2/1/2014, 2:22 PM
I use Canon DSLR footage all the time in Vegas 12 with zero problems. I also have Magic Lantern installed on my Canon 60D. I haven't used the color profile you use so I can't address that. I haven't done any comparisons with my Canon footage in Premiere vs. Vegas so I can't really address that either. I haven't read any articles or discussions regarding Adobe's superior handling of Canon footage, that's a new one on me. I'll research that. I have been very pleased with the Canon footage and the end results in Vegas. I have fiddled around with color correcting my Canon footage in Lightroom 5 by applying the Adobe Raw filter. That is awesome, I wish that could be a plug in for Vegas but I guess that will never happen. I really don't have much to contribute to your OP but since you weren't getting much response, I thought I'd chime in with something.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 2/1/2014, 4:20 PM
Apparently Shane Hurlbut ASC has ranted and raved about how PPro "supposedly" handles native 5D footage as though it were sprinkled with magic pixie dust, but he does has street cred hence my initial question.

How many are still transcoding to an intermediate like Cineform or DNxHD versus native file handling? Adobe's claim is that there is no need to transcode because of how PPro, After Effects and SpeedGrade handles native DSLR footage.

I'm now looking at the utilization of PhaseOne Capture 7 as my Raw processor and stills prep tool for inclusion into my multimedia story projects. Even the express version is said to bring a higher level of IQ to images exported out compared to Adobe's handling of RAW.

I was just curious if Vegas is handling the footage much in the same way as Adobe is said to handle native DSLR footage with an internal 32bit float engine and nVidia's CUDA tech or what other alchemy is going on in the background.

Last but not least, Color grading: Within Vegas or are others using another tool like Davinci Resolve Lite?
dlion wrote on 2/2/2014, 11:38 AM
i use ml on my t5i and t2i. no prob working with the mov footage in vegas 12.

i experimented over the summer with ml raw, but the frame rate/size had not really been optimized. worse, the workflow was less than seamless, perhaps more mature now.

i also looked at ccing in lightroom 5 and resolve lite. lr looked most favorable but i was uneasy about lr's version of mp4 going back to vegas. resolve would require a time investment.

i think you can get very sophisticated looks within vegas, with movie looks or vasst's presets. i'm going to revisit lr5 again, because i'm used to the controls from stills.
NormanPCN wrote on 2/2/2014, 2:43 PM
Apparently Shane Hurlbut ASC has ranted and raved about how PPro "supposedly" handles native 5D footage as though it were sprinkled with magic pixie dust, but he does has street cred hence my initial question.

I have read some reports about the Quicktime H.264 decoder adding a small amount of noise to the decode. This can be good for playback in situations. For input to an editor you don't want it. The validity of this claim I cannot confirm, but it is out there.

DSLRs typically output Quicktime MOV files with H.264 video so if Vegas or Premiere goes through Quicktime for these then you get the Qt decode and it potential issue(s).

Vegas detects MOV files with H.264 video and PCM audio and bypasses Quicktime to read these. It sounds like Premiere is also doing the same.

I figured Vegas was bypassing simply to avoid Quicktime dependency issues for such common files. DSLRs and Digicams and some helmet cams. Maybe there another reason if the decoder story is true.
ddm wrote on 2/3/2014, 6:08 PM
Cliff, were you having stability issues with Vegas and Canon footage files, or were you having stability issues with GPU related stuff? Vegas 11 or 12? I have been pretty problem free (knock on wood) with Vegas 11 and 12, with GPU to boot with Canon files and HDV footage. I did have a few crashes recently when doing a 5 camera concert with Sony EX3 mxf files. Had to turn off GPU otherwise I would crash my system 3 or 4 times a day. With Canon footage, I've had zero problems. I sympathize with your quest to find the Holy Grail of Canon DSLR quality, but I sometimes think that the quest is just as mythical as the search for the golden chalice. I use Premiere occasionally, mainly to stabilize GoPro helicopter footage, but I find it tedious and have never seen any jump in render quality. It does preview some video faster than Vegas but rendering seems quite a bit slower to me although I don't use it enough to be sure.

Stability is a big issue and I understand that using an unstable Vegas can be quite counterproductive, if your system has the reliability problems that some others here who have had nightmare problems, then you're probably stuck with Premiere, for the time being.