VV3.0a NTSC DVD and Ulead MovieFactory

gbohn wrote on 3/5/2002, 2:48 PM

Hi;

I recently created a 58 minute NTSC DVD MPEG-2 file from Canopus ADVC-100 DV source using Vegas Video 3.0a. I then tried to use Uleads DVD MovieFactory 'Author Menus' function to create a DVD (where you select various points in the MPEG to have as points for menus).

I can create a DVD that works properly, but I have a problem with extremely slow performance when trying to create the menus from the VV 3.0a output. I previously created a project with the 'old' Vegas video 3 and that one seemed to work o.k.

If I hit the 'play' button, the video plays as expected. If I try to jump ahead using the digit counter or slider to, say 10 minutes into the MPEG, this stalls as the system appears to read the MPEG file. It takes about two or three minutes, and then things work again after the system 'catches up'.

Any time I attempt a 'random' access to pick menu points, the program seems to stall for a long time until it 'catches up' again. (As if it wants to reread the MPEG file from the start again).

I also made another MPEG of similar size from the same DV source, but I used Adobe Premiere 6.0 and LSX-MPEG LE as the MPEG encoder. This did not show the problem above (and both files were a bit under 4 GB in size).

Both MPEG files resulted in a playable DVD. Since the VV one seems to have the problem it made me wonder if there is something about the VV output that MovieFactory doesn't like.

Is there some particular feature that I am missing that needs to be set to be compatible with Uleads MovieFactory? Anyone else see this problem?

As it is, I want to use the SF Vegas Video MPEG encoder, but the slow operation of DVD Movie Factory (when using the VV output) makes menu creation unusable for me.

I tried a much shorter VV3.0a MPEG clip, and Movie factory seemed to respond better, but I wonder if the system just 'cached' up the entire clip (and maybe hid the file access?).

My system is Windows 2000/ SP2 with NTFS file system. I am using a CBR of 8,600,000 Mbits/sec, the DVD NTSC template, compensate for field motion, ECC audio at 48 KHz/224 KBits/sec. I have tried the default of Timestamps on 'I-Frames only' as well as timestamps on 'I and P frames' thinking this sounded like something to try.

My system is a shiny new 2.2 GHz P4, 1 GB RAM, with Seagate Barracuda IV ATA drives, so I would have hoped that this shouldn't be the problem.

Thanks;

-Greg Bohn

Comments

SonyEPM wrote on 3/5/2002, 3:11 PM

You said you are rendering as "CBR of 8,600,000 Mbits/sec". This bitrate is cranked pretty high and that might cause some problems.

Ulead's own doc (http://www.ulead.com/dmf/tips.htm) states:

"DVD Video Parameter Settings for Movie Factory"

Frame Size: 720x480 (NTSC) or 720x576 (PAL)
Frame Rate: 29.97 frames/second (NTSC) or 25 frames/second (PAL)
Video Data Rate: 4~8 Mbps CBR or VBR (Constant/Variable Bit Rate)
Audio Settings: Stereo, 48 kHz and 192~384 kbps MPEG audio"

Note that our DVD template maxes out at 8,000,000, right in line with Ulead's requirements. What were the render settings you used for Ligos? Can you try matching those exactly with the Vegas encoder and see if the problem still exists?

lvildosola wrote on 3/6/2002, 9:19 AM

MainConcept's renderer seems to be at fault here. I have tried the same thing going to even a mere 5000 kbps and it still hangs. In my case it is while rendering. I would suggest you use TMPGEnc in the mean time. I have been able to successfully render MPEG2 files with high bitrates. No problems there. Ulead DVD MovieFactory is not at fault here. At least I don't think so since I also have it and I don't have with MPEG2 files redered from TMPGEnc. Just my 2c.

gbohn wrote on 3/6/2002, 11:35 AM

>You said you are rendering as "CBR of 8,600,000 Mbits/sec". This bitrate is cranked >pretty high and that might cause some problems.
>
>Ulead's own doc (http://www.ulead.com/dmf/tips.htm) states:
>
>"DVD Video Parameter Settings for Movie Factory"
>
>Frame Size: 720x480 (NTSC) or 720x576 (PAL)
>Frame Rate: 29.97 frames/second (NTSC) or 25 frames/second (PAL)
>Video Data Rate: 4~8 Mbps CBR or VBR (Constant/Variable Bit Rate)
>Audio Settings: Stereo, 48 kHz and 192~384 kbps MPEG audio"
>
>Note that our DVD template maxes out at 8,000,000, right in line with Ulead's >requirements.

I'm not sure if 'Tips' is the same as the 'specs' or not. I was under the impression that the real DVD limit was a combined bitrate of less than or equal 9.8 Mbit/sec. I got this impression from

http://www.mpeg.org/MPEG/DVD/Book_B/Video.html

where it makes this claim. (I don't know if this info might be out of date, or just plain wrong, or is actually correct...)

This seems to match your MPEG-2 encoder, where both the variable and CBR drop-down speed settings show '9,800,000' Bits/sec as one of the three 'standard' rates provided.

Hmmm.. come to think of it, the VBR 'default' of 8,000,000 doesn't come back if you select any value from the drop-down, as it's not listed. The CBR defaults to 6,000,000, and doesn't have 8,000,000 in the drop-down list either. This doesn't seem quite consistent (at least not having 8M somewhere in the drop-down list of the VBR stuff if you have that as the default. Same thing for 6M and CBR)...

At any rate (no pun intended :-), I can try turning down the bitrate and see what that does. Since of course, they could have their own limit as well. But, I tried a few things in the meantime that may have some relevance.

I ran the same VV render (8.6 Mbit, etc), but terminated the render prematurely. Once at about 1.3 GB and once at 2,341,650,432 bytes. Both produced a file that seemed to work o.k. with the menues in MovieFactory.

This makes me wonder if it's the size of the final product that's the problem (for MovieFactory), or perhaps some 'finalization' step that VV does when complete. I'll have to try and do a full render but catch it to abort immediately prior to completion.

>What were the render settings you used for Ligos? Can you try
>matching those exactly with the Vegas encoder and see if the problem still exists?

I already had attempted to match the settings as best as possible, but the LSX LE version doesn't give you as many options as VV. Both LSX and VV were set to '8,600,000 Bits/sec'. Curiously, the MovieFactory 'Info' page claims the LSX bitrate was 8,806 Kb/Sec. How they got that from setting 8,600 was not clear to me.

Even though the smaller (slightly > 2 GB) render at 8,600 Kb/sec seemed to work, I can try a lower bit rate and increase the length for the same rough final size (just under 4 GB) to see if that works any better in case they do really have some limit of 8 Mb/sec.

All these test renders are starting to add up to some real time though.

-Greg Bohn

SonyEPM wrote on 3/6/2002, 11:39 AM

We are in touch with Ulead about this. If they or we come up with anything relating to bitrate maximums or file compliance, I will post the info here.

goldenimage wrote on 4/10/2002, 1:21 PM

I am considering purchasing DVD MovieFactory?
Any updates yet?

PeterMac wrote on 4/10/2002, 1:41 PM

I use MovieFactory extensively with a number of MPEGs generated by different encoders. The 'fault' is not limited to Vegas's encoder, Tmpgenc, for instance, does it worse. The influencing factors appear to be the bit rate used in encoding (the higher the rate, the more severe the effect), the load on the machine's CPU and memory (it's best not to have the computer doing anything else) and the size of the MPEG file (the bigger the file, the worse it is, especially as you try to set chapter points towards the end of the file).

My feeling is that the fault lies with MovieFactory, which has difficulties hunting around a particular I-frame and often seems reluctant to move on. It's most likely a buffering/caching glitch, but it can drive you insane and get you seriously thinking about setting the machine on fire.

And yet, in spite of all that, it's still the program I'd recommend to newcomers wanting to create their first VCD/SVCD/DVD.

-Pete

doormill wrote on 4/10/2002, 2:14 PM

Let me throw in my 2 cents worth if you don't mind. I've used MovieFactory and it is just as PeterMac says. The larger the file the worse it is with MF. I gave up because it was so slow and so unpredictable. However, their new product DVD Workshop works great. No problems at all. It is however a lot more money($299.00) but it does a lot more than most DVD authoring programs that cost 2-3 times as much and it is stable.

Good Luck and have a great day!!