WAY OT: Dis camera or dat one? Guru's please!

kkolbo wrote on 6/8/2007, 2:28 PM
This grew from another post and I really want the opinions of this community that I trust. Please take the time to read the requirements and make your best call.

[B]The situation:[/B]
I teach a high school video production program in an inner-city high school. These students have very little experience with delicate items and no experience with photography or video. Some have experience with computers along the level of myspace and music downloading. 80% have cell phones, I won't discuss why. Many have never seen a VHS tape. (should make you start to feel old) None have seen an audio cassette. At the start of last year 5% signed up because they wanted to learn about video production. Another 35% signed up because they thought it sounded more fun than weight lifting or chemistry as a class. The remainder where put in the class without consultation by their counselors.

At the start of last year there were 230 students in the program in 6 classes. Eventually we got down to 35-37 students per class. 5 classes were first year students. We had 6 Panasonic DVC7's a Canon XL1 and a GL2. The Canons were only used for specialty production. One DVC7 did not survive and the others had problems requiring my attention several times. Next year I will have 25-28 students in each of 6 classes.

The school broadcast to the classrooms over cable type RF, through a noisy system. It is 4:3 SD. 85% of our work is for that output. The next time that money is allocated to look at redesigning or updating that system is in 2012 when they consider modifications to the school buildings. Actual work would not begin until 2014.

[B]Application:[/b]
With so many beginning students, these units see many hours of service and it is HARD service. The XL1 and GL2 would not have survived long in standard use.

The camcorders will be used for teaching the basics of exposure, focus, composition and white balance. After that , we concentrate on the content in front of the camera such as ENG reporting and basic documentary style. For any cinematic work with advanced students we go to the XL1 or my Z1. The Z1 does most of it. The ENG work is in high humidity like Florida football games and low light like high school dances.

The options:
I have been authorized to purchase 5 new Sony PD170's with cases, batteries, chargers and ENG mics to add to my stable. The PD170's are damn near bulletproof, have good manual controls and have a good repair path. It has been suggested that I go to the Canon XH-A1 instead. The money will buy only four of those units. I have never use one so I need to know if they are stronger than the XL1 or GL2 and do I get enough benefit to have justify fewer units?

Using the buy more units for the same money idea, the Sony A1U would be more units for the same money, they are good little units but do not give me the size and the ability to teach the iris, shutter relationship as easily.

If you see the way I look at the relationships of the units, please fire away with suggestions and comments. I do the P.O.'s on Monday.

Comments

kkolbo wrote on 6/8/2007, 5:05 PM
Now I know I am obsessing. I keep thinking that I could buy four Sony A1's and one V1, but then again, I would have one camera that wouldn't fit the average student and three different cameras to orient a beginning class on. I could just wait until next year and fund raise for a cinema style camera when I have more students ready to do that work.

Of course I could get six A1's instead of the five PD170's. My gut says the PD170's will teach better because of the low light and the size factor; not to mention the simplicity and the side tape door.

Oh, DSE or someone please shoot me and put me out of my misery. I picked the audio console to replace our dying Tascam really easily. Selecting the new Waveform Monitor was easy. Last year, even the teleprompters were easy. Why can't I be strong about camcorders?

HELP!
farss wrote on 6/8/2007, 5:08 PM
I can see nothing wrong under the circumstance of sticking with the PD170s. It seems inevitable that something will get broken and as much as we might argue about who makes the best camera Sony's service is stellar. They just fix the things. It's expensive but not getting something fixed right is even more so.

As you'll only have 4:3 SD displays for some time I can't see much advantage in going to a HDV camera as your general teaching tool either. I might suggest keeping some money aside for one fully kitted out HD camera. Go the full hog, matte box, FF gear etc. The XDCAM EX might be worth waiting for. But this is just for the once or twice a year showcase projects to give the kids that are interested something to aspire to.

Bob.
kkolbo wrote on 6/8/2007, 5:25 PM
That's what my gut has been telling me. The durability and repair is SOOOOOO important and right now we use my personal Z1 which is fully tricked out including a good selection of filters and stuff. We pull out my dolly and the soon to be finished jib etc. and make a "big" project each year like our Saw parody last year. (it takes five, two hour afternoons to do a scene with full grip gear and the complete look like this sample at [LINK=http://www.amvona.com/videos.php?id=17] Saw Intro [/link] )

Next year I can put on a HDV camera for doing more of that after I have more students who have mastered the XL1 and the PD170's. Right now I have only one student who can handle the XL1.

STILL LOOKING FOR MORE COMMENTS AND LOOKS FROM THE OTHER SIDES
richard-courtney wrote on 6/8/2007, 5:33 PM
I have 170 and can't tell you enough of how well they perform.
I didn't see tripods while personally I love Millers a http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/376871-REG/Libec_LS22ZC3_LS_22_Aluminum_Tripod_System.htmlLibec LS22[/link] kit is a good
price including the Lanc pan arm.

I could go on and on. Have you seen the "Now Hear This" "Light It Right" and
Vic's latest DVD "Master the Shoot"? Must haves for training.
ushere wrote on 6/8/2007, 7:03 PM
go with the 170 - good, solid, reliable cameras. by the time you upgrade the rest of the peripheral equipment, hd cameras will have tumbled in price (with the onslaught of the next best thing...)

leslie
rs170a wrote on 6/9/2007, 3:31 AM
Keith, as others have said, there's nothing wrong with sticking with the 170s.
The journalism program at the college I work for got 4 of them last year and, for student use, I consider them an ideal camera. It's got all the features of a high end camera without the high end price.
Now if I could only get the students to actually read the manual :-(

Mike
kkolbo wrote on 6/9/2007, 5:58 AM
Now if I could only get the students to actually read the manual :-(

I am dealing with a 5th grade reading level on many of my students, not to mention those that don't speak any English. I feel your pain.

I appreciate the comments from folks. It sounds like my gut is going to stop churning and I will listen to it. I have beat my PD150 until I am bleeding and it keeps on ticking. (It fell to the concrete from a car mount one day and finished the shoot without missing a beat.) It also has the key professional features (audio, exposure, zebras etc) that make it a good training camera while still being forgiving. It also doesn't fit into a pocket so it will not be attractive for a home user to acquire.

I have a wide variety of camcorders and I still prefer Sony's for hard, real world service. (shameles plug)
Laurence wrote on 6/9/2007, 6:08 AM
The HVR-A1 may be cheap, but it is a wonderful camera. I have been doing a bunch of high end real estate virtual tours lately where we are using both the Z1 and the A1, and in editing, you can't really tell which is which.
RalphM wrote on 6/9/2007, 6:23 AM
You asked for gurus, which I am not.

However, I have two VX2000's (very close to the PD170 in most respects) and one A1. The low light capability of the A1 is not in the same league, and its autofocus is poor . Most of its manual controls are accessible only through the touch screen which makes for high damage probability.

Perhaps in the hands of a pro, the A1 would be a good choice, but I don't think it's what you want for your students.

You also mention that the school video distribution system is not the best. My guess is that if you ran the PD170 in 16 X 9 mode, you would be hard pressed to tell that the vertical resolution was not 480 when those clips were broadcast. I've been surprised how well the 16 X 9 works on the VX2000.

IMHO