I think that conclusion is implicit in the inability of Vegas -- using MME -- to record 24 bit in Windows 2000. Oh, that and the latency...

Strange. I use a RME Hammerfall 9652, with Tango24 converters under WindowsXP Pro, and I seem to be able to record in 24 bit just fine with Vegas using RME's MME drivers.

What card are you using? There seems to be an issue with the Delta stuff I've heard..

-Matt

I'm not sure about in XP, but in 2000 -- and this is according to numerous sources, including SF itself -- 24bit recording seems to work fine, but in fact only 16bits are being recorded (and 8bits of lovely zeros).

>>I'm not sure about in XP, but in 2000 -- and this is according to numerous sources, including SF itself -- 24bit recording seems to work fine, but in fact only 16bits are being recorded (and 8bits of lovely zeros).<<

Yeah, that sounds familiar, however, I seem to remember that being a problem with Delta MME stuff though. I could be wrong.

It's hardware nonspecific.

Hello,

I work with windows 2000 Pro and a RME 9652 and I can record a real 24 bits (The RME comes with a check utility). The problem of record and play 16 bits (With WDM not MME) are the Windows ME.

Bye

Who said MME is obsolete ? Well just about anybody who is talking about better streaming and latency performance.

The problem is with WDM based drivers. The RME drivers are NOT WDM based, they are Native Wave MME.

Peter

I disagree with this.

A properly written, NATIVE Wave MME driver on Win2000/WinXP is more than capable of handling the lower latency streaming requirements of todays DAWs. The RME drivers are perfect examples of this.

WDM wave emulation...well, it leaves something to be desired....

Peter

To my knowledge, Sonic Foundry apps do not need or require low latency drivers. Since none of the current SF apps have live input monitoring and/or DXi/VSTi capabilities available, low latencies are not really needed. But, the ability to use WDM with SF apps is still important for users that also use other WDM optimised apps
and have WDM drivers installed on their systems. You cannot run WDM and MME drivers together. It is one or the other. There does appear to be a problem with W2K only using 16bits when WDM drivers are used in non-optimised WDM apps. XP does not appear to have this problem. Another reason to go with an XP OS. RME does produce MME drivers that can get as low as 1.5msec latency. But there are couple reasons why they are not as viable as WDM for a lot of people.

1) First is higher CPU demands:
To achieve the low latencies, the RME MME drivers consume a lot more CPU @<3.0msec
latencies than an equivalent WDM driver. WDM is more CPU friendly.
2) Second is cost:
RME cards with the low latency MME drivers are very expensive compared to equivalent WDM drivers. Expect to pay $500.00 or more for an RME card with the low latency MME driver. While proven 24/96 WDM cards can be had for less than 80 bucks.

Billy Buck

I keep seeing this topic over and over and I wish Sonic Foundry could post a FAQ that explicitly states where their products stand in relation to this topic and various combinations of products. I for one would be intrested in what I can and cannot record using Win 2000 and an M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 card.

I have seen other threads (with input by SF personnel - I think?)that indicate that current SF products are stuck at 16 bit 44k recording capability when using Win2k and WDM drivers. It is further posited that the problem lies with Win 2k in this case? What confuses me is that I also use other products (from a company that begins with a "C") that seem to have no problem working with Win 2k, WDM and recording at 24 bit 96k? Why then is the fix for SF to support WDM dependent upon an OS service pack or upgrade?

I may be all wet, and I would love to be corrected but there seems to be a lack of definitive clear information regarding SF products and WDM.

I have searched the SF Knowledge Base and have been unable to find anything with this kind of detail there.

Please SF, set us all straight on this!

Thanks.

-CB

I agree, it would be beneficial to have the correct information listed in the FAQ, stating the various driver and OS issues as they relate to Sonic Foundry products. It would help the consumer make a more educated decision on software and hardware needs.

Billy Buck

A properly written, NATIVE Wave MME driver on Win2000/WinXP is more than capable of handling the lower latency streaming requirements of todays DAWs. The RME drivers are perfect examples of this.

WDM wave emulation...well, it leaves something to be desired....

Peter

I'm not sure as to why sofo are holding on to a old standard when there is a far better one right in front of them. The newest drivers from echo can't even be fully utilized because none of sofo products can read it. Win2k/XP...WDM drivers are where its going. Sofo,except this and bring your development up to par. All these other companies see the light but here you guys are [AGAIN]bringing up the rear in the audio side of things. With all this talk of video this video that blah blah blah no wonder cubase/logic/sonar/etc...don't even feel threatened at all to mention vegas as a "remote" threat to their audio market. Enough of the excuses,please. Peter...if what your saying is true then why are all the "audio only" apps out there moving on with full WDM development/implementation. I hold you guys to the standards that I see with other audio apps. Vegas Video has a product comparison page to show how vegas holds up to premier,avid,etc....NEVER do you see a comparison chart to hold Vegas up against anything like cubase,etc...Maybe to a weaker version of vegas but come on!!! This type of decision to hold on full WDM compatibility reminds me of the decision of having a "Master Fader" implemented after 3 updates of your program. Thankgod you placed a fader lock on it as well or I would have freaked.Later.

Hello,

>1) First is higher CPU demands:
>To achieve the low latencies, the RME MME drivers consume a lot more CPU @<3.0msec
>latencies than an equivalent WDM driver. WDM is more CPU friendly.

I work in a dual P3 1000 with 52 tracks of 24/48 Audio, a lot of Waves plugins, and all Hamerfal outputs (24) without any problem, no cpu problems or more comsume by the RME card.

I can't optain the same performance with a MOTU 828 with WDM

>2) Second is cost:
>RME cards with the low latency MME drivers are very expensive compared to >equivalent WDM drivers. Expect to pay $500.00 or more for an RME card with the low >latency MME driver. While proven 24/96 WDM cards can be had for less than 80 bucks.

I don't agree, the RME cards are cheap, for example 498 Euro the Hamerfall 9652 (26 in's / 26 out's), I don't know cards cheap than the RME with the same quality.

80 bucks card, excuse me, but this card is a toy, I'm sure that card isn't a pro quality card.

Bye

Ramallo,
When needing extreme low latencies for live input monitoring and/or playing virtual intruments in real-time, the RME MME drivers using less than 3msec latencies, consume more CPU than proven WDM drivers at the same latencies. Last year, Hans Van Even, a strong proponent of RME cards, admitted to it after running a series of tests comparing the HamerFall MME drivers to a similar card(Delta 1010, I think) with WDM drivers and stress testing them at extreme low latencies(<3msec)using real-time input from a MIDI controller and triggering a softsynth. You can find his website @ www.cakewalknet.com
In fact, I believe, he said the RME MME was not as stable @ 1.5msec as WDM. Have you checked this yourself to verify, using a softsynth and a MIDI controller for realtime input with no droputs or crackling in the audio?
Also, many people don't have the money or need for a RME, as good as they are, and WDM is a good low cost alternative. The AudioTrak MAYA is a PCI card that has proven WDM drivers @ 3.0msec for $59.00. @
http://kellysmusicandcomputers.com/productinfo.asp?id=1321152806
or you could get the Maya 44 which has even better specs for $109.00:
http://kellysmusicandcomputers.com/productinfo.asp?id=1013200536
The M-Audio Audiophile is a good 24/96, S/PDIF I/O, w/ MIDI solution for $179.00 @
http://kellysmusicandcomputers.com/productinfo.asp?id=972409888

For many users that want a low cost, quality, low latency solution, there are other alternatives out there that are still viable without breaking the bank. I am using a Delta 66 with WDM and can get as low 1msec effective latency @ 24/96, and the audio is clear and pristine. But, I guess, since I did not spend the big bucks for an RME my audio should sound like crap. Oh well, at least I don't have a BSLive, then where would I be.

Billy Buck

Hello,

>In fact, I believe, he said the RME MME was not as stable @ 1.5msec as WDM. Have >you checked this yourself to verify, using a softsynth and a MIDI controller for >realtime input with no droputs or crackling in the audio?

I set the buffer size in 1,5 ms (Card) and playback buffering 0,03s (Vegas), start a 52 track project and record a new track with a track (In the project) of fast an percusive sound (Loop), the project sounds with no drops, the diference between the original track and the new one is 3 ms (Measured in Vegas).

The Vegas can't handle virtual synthetizers, but I tried with Nuendo and Halion and I can work at 1,5 ms without drops (Is VST, I know).

>Also, many people don't have the money or need for a RME,

Maybe,

>as good as they are, and WDM is a good low cost alternative. The AudioTrak MAYA is >a PCI card that has proven WDM drivers @ 3.0msec for $59.00. @
>http://kellysmusicandcomputers.com/productinfo.asp?id=1321152806
>or you could get the Maya 44 which has even better specs for $109.00:
>http://kellysmusicandcomputers.com/productinfo.asp?id=1013200536
>The M-Audio Audiophile is a good 24/96, S/PDIF I/O, w/ MIDI solution for $179.00 @
>http://kellysmusicandcomputers.com/productinfo.asp?id=972409888

For me, this cards are a toy. The bit deep, sampling frecuency and latency isn't a real measure quality factor, the first is the sound quality (I'm a audio guy), a very good converters is the goal(I have a real 112 dB of S/N), and next the other factors. I believe that you knows that some cards of 24/96 sound worse than others of 20/48 (High Jitter, bad S/N, high distortion, etc.)

>For many users that want a low cost, quality, low latency solution, there are other >alternatives out there that are still viable without breaking the bank.

If you want a professional results, I don't agree, bad sounding cards ins't a pro solution. Vegas is a pro software and need a pro devices. Using a bad sound card with Vegas is equal to buy a Ferrari with a bicycle wheels.

I don't know if the RME are expensive in America, in Europe is cheap, is a good buy, one of the best cards at very low price (Like a mid price sound cards)

>I am using >a Delta 66 with WDM and can get as low 1msec effective latency @ 24/96, >and the >audio is clear and pristine. But, I guess, since I did not spend the big <bucks for >an RME my audio should sound like crap. Oh well, at least I don't have a >BSLive, >then where would I be.

If you are happy with the Delta, you don't need find more. An advice, try a RME card

Bye

It is further posited that the problem lies with Win 2k in this case? What confuses me is that I also use other products (from a company that begins with a "C") that seem to have no problem working with Win 2k, WDM and recording at 24 bit 96k? Why then is the fix for SF to support WDM dependent upon an OS service pack or upgrade?
<<<

Who said MME is obsolete?

Oh, come on. It's the new Microsoft standard, isn't it?

How about an answer to the question?

Whoops- I didn't see Peter's post until just now.

OK- I understand your point, but I personally have a problem when enabling MME and trying to use Sonar. How do I get around this and still use Vegas?

OK- I understand your point, but I personally have a problem when enabling MME and trying to use Sonar. How do I get around this and still use Vegas?
<<<
I take it you mean using Vegas and SONAR at the same time?

prezbass,
What OS, audio card and drivers are you using? This is critical to your ability to use SONAR and Vegas Video together. I am using WinXP and a Delta 66 with the latest 5.10.00.0026 Multi-Client WDM drivers. I am able to have SONAR, Vegas Video 3.0, ACID 3.0 & SF5.0, all open and using the same Delta 66 1/2 channel @ 24/44, with no compatibility problems whatsoever. In fact, my system stability and performance has never been better.

Billy Buck

Peter, many thanks for the clarification. The only remaining spot of confusion involves the 2000 bug and the windows extensible format, which, according to Echo -- and to yourself, obliquely, in a different post -- if correctly supported, does allow 24 bit in 2000.
Maybe.
Otherwise, please let us know when someone -- microsoft, SF, Godot, whoever -- addresses the situation.