What is the best quality way to do 16x9?

ghost072 wrote on 6/8/2004, 11:30 AM
I know this topic has been covered in here before, as I did search before posting, but I am looking to get a consensus, because I am fairly baffled on this issue.

If I want to convert standard 4x3 DV to 16x9, for later digital projection, what option should I choose for best quality:

1. Use in-camera 16x9 (using a VX2000)
2. Use a 16x9 overlay mask in camera
3. Shoot 4x3, then use Pan/Crop in Vegas to 16x9
4. Shoot 4x3, then use Track Motion to 16x9
5. Shoot 4x3, then use 16x9 overlay mask in Vegas
6. Shoot 4x3, then convert to NTSC DV Widescreen in Vegas

4,5 & 6 especially confuse me, as I have messed around with different combinations of these and sometimes get the "squeeze" effect, which looks terrible on a 4x3 TV, but I assume would look better when projected digitally.

Is there a "best option" for both normal TVs and digital 16x9 projection (like the type they use for film festivals)?

Thanks...

Comments

RafalK wrote on 6/8/2004, 1:38 PM
Hey Ghost. I have been very happy with shooting straight in 16:9 mode (XL1s).
BTW, Century Optics now has an anamorphic adapter for those of you who own XL1s, a bit pricey ( @ 1400 ), but at least it's available.
filmy wrote on 6/8/2004, 1:48 PM
>>>If I want to convert standard 4x3 DV to 16x9, for later digital projection, what option should I choose for best quality<<<

There is your first "problem" - And I only say this because you than ask:
1. Use in-camera 16x9 (using a VX2000)

If you want to shoot 16x9/widescreen than the best way to do it to to shoot 16x9 - meaning that if your camera shoots native great, if not than use an anamorphic adaptor. That will give you the best 16x9 quality.

Now if you have no way to shoot true 16x9 IMO the best way is to shoot 4:3 and convert in post. And that now leads into your questions.

>>>1. Use in-camera 16x9 (using a VX2000)<<<

if it is a "Squeeze mode" I would not use it because it is doing the same thing, more or less, that you would be doing in post.

>>>2. Use a 16x9 overlay mask in camera<<<

I am guessing you mean via a "cinema" type setting that letterboxes the 4:3 image. Again - I would not do this because you can do it with more control in post.

>>>3. Shoot 4x3, then use Pan/Crop in Vegas to 16x9
4. Shoot 4x3, then use Track Motion to 16x9
5. Shoot 4x3, then use 16x9 overlay mask in Vegas
6. Shoot 4x3, then convert to NTSC DV Widescreen in Vegas<<<

Alll of this is open to discussion as to what will work/look best..in a sense there are really only 2 questions - crop to 16x9 or letterbox via overlay. For the anamorphic crop I use the crop tool and than I can adjust the image accordingly if I need to. When I render I either choose the normal DV setting which will add the "letterbox" automaticly or I choose the DV widescreen setting making sure the "do not letterbox" is turned on.

If all you want to do is add a letterbox that would give a better quality than croping, but you will still have a 4:3 aspect and when you project you will be blowing up the image - the same way you would if you cropped in Vegas. But the question was what would be best quality - so 4:3 with letterbox it would be in this case. I would say also use the Zenote letterbox plug-in because it is fast and easy to just ass a letterbox over a 4:3 image.

ghost072 wrote on 6/9/2004, 7:47 AM
The VX2000 does use a squeeze mode, so I didn't think that would be desirable. I agree that adding an overlay in post would be advantageous (especially if you realize later that you didn't frame the shot the way you wanted), but does pan/crop add significantly to render time? I am already going to be adding a Magic Bullet look to the entire project, probably meaning about 200 hours of rendering.

The render settings are still a little unclear to me. If I crop the image to 16x9, I should render to NTSC DV, right? Would there be an advantage to rendering cropped footage to NTSC DV Widescreen?
riredale wrote on 6/9/2004, 8:44 AM
I have not gotten involved with 16x9 (yet), but can offer my impressions so far--

There are different ways of saving a 16x9 image in DV. One way is simply to shoot to a 16x9 mask on the viewfinder, and then put in the letterbox bars in post. The problem is that the vertical resolution of the final image suffers, since you're limiting it to 360 pixels rather than the full 480 pixels (in the NTSC world). Most cameras (including the VX2000, I think) create "16x9" in this undesired fashion.

A better approach is to use an anamorphic lens that squishes the 16x9 field down to a 4x3 image, and then use the full 480x720 (NTSC) pixel count to save that image. But anamorphic lenses have their own problems. The best solution is, of course, to use a camera employing a CCD designed to the 16x9 format, so that the anamorphic lens is not necessary.

As I understand it, all that is needed to display an anamorphic image correctly on DVD playback is a bit in the metadata that tells the player the playback aspect ratio.

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious.
farss wrote on 6/9/2004, 8:54 AM
Others have said this but I'll add my voice as well. You really need either a camera that'll shoot native 16x9 and expect to PAY, forget the dinky lttle thing from Sony or an anamorphic adaptor. If you had a camera like the DVX100A then shooting in progressive will give an increase in vertical res that'll offset the loss due to letterboxing. In fact I've seen some footage out of that camera where they use the adaptor and squeeze to get cinemascope AR and it still looked pretty good.
Another thing, 16x9 no matter how you shoot it, is less forgiving of camera motion and being off level.
filmy wrote on 6/9/2004, 10:59 AM
>>>...but does pan/crop add significantly to render time?<<<

On it's own, not really - at least not that I have seen. Yes it does add time but not as much as adding Magic Bullet does. :) I will also add this - if you have a 4:3 aspect ration and you pan and crop and render to 16:9 aspect ratio, with no letterbox, the render time will be more than if you simply add the "black bars" so to speak. This has been discussed before but 4:3 to 16:9 is actually resizing and blowing up the image.

>>>The render settings are still a little unclear to me. If I crop the image to 16x9, I should render to NTSC DV, right? Would there be an advantage to rendering cropped footage to NTSC DV Widescreen?<<<

You have 2 options - the advatage to either is yours. You can render the 16:9 cropeed footage back to 4:3 *with letterbox* (That is the "maintain aspect ratio" checkbox and it will add the black bars) or you can render to "anamorphic" by leaving the checkbox unchecked - this will render your image to full frame. If you watch it on a 4:3 monitor it will look squished, if you look at it on a 16:9 monitor it will look fine. The "advantage" to using the widscreen setting is that the footage will be flagged correctly for 16:9.

I will add on that if you are going out to DVD than IMO it is best to render out to widscreen with *no letterbox* because the DVD player will auto-adjust based on your settings (the DVD player settings that is). If you tell it that you have a widescrene TV it will show it normally, if you tell it you have a 4:3 TV it will add the letterbox.