Comments

FuTz wrote on 4/15/2005, 11:06 PM
You caught my attention here. I just did a few tests with deinterlacing with 2-3 and 2-3-3-2 pulldowns and I noticed that difference in resolution with original image. Weew!
Tomorrow, I'll try to play with the interlacing method itself (I think there's 2 or 3 settings...) and I may try the Cyberlink's trial just ot see...
But I'm aiming at TV, not PC so...
Laurence wrote on 4/15/2005, 11:51 PM
I've been reading up a little since making this post. I think what is going on is that PowerDVD is doing a bob type deinterlace on regular 60i. In other words instead of showing 30 interlaced frames a second it dropping fields and doubling lines 60 times a second, so that in essence, what you're seeing is 60 fps progressive footage (albiet at half the vertical resolution). Whatever it's doing, it looks pretty darned good. I've started using PowerDVD instead of Media Player to view DV files on my PC. When I use media player, I can see those nasty interlace artifacts that we all complain about. When I deinterlace with Vegas/DVFilm/VirtualDub the footage looks blocky and the motion is no longer smooth. When I play the original interlaced avi files with PowerDVD, it looks as good or better than it does on a TV.

I think WinDVD does the same thing too. In any case, I've never minded interlaced video playback on a TV. I just hate it on my PC. With DVD software playing back the interlaced avi files, it looks great though.
Laurence wrote on 4/16/2005, 12:54 AM
WinDVD definately does the same thing. I've just been comparing the two: WinDVD and PowerDVD and they look pretty much the same. There is a slight difference in aspect ratio in full screen mode. PowerDVD letterboxes a little at the top and bottom of my standard shaped monitor whereas WinDVD fills the entire screen. I'm not sure which one is closer to the true aspect ratio. Anyway, both programs deinterlace much better on the fly than anything I've tried can do as a render.
B_JM wrote on 4/16/2005, 6:43 AM
Media Player Classic does it one better -you can select the type of deinterlacing you want to use ..

weave, bob or Blend (or AUTO setting where MPC determines the best based on material) ..

mdopp wrote on 4/16/2005, 7:55 AM
I don't know about PowerDVD but WinDVD has three options: Bob, Weave and Progressive. The last setting is sometimes referred to as "adaptive Deinterlacing" and gives by far the best results. AFAIK this setting works kind of similar to motion estimation in MPEG compression. It looks for motion over a couple of frames/fields and interpolates the missing lines accordingly. Vertical resolution is NOT reduced.
I have never found any software deinterlacer for NLE systems being as good as WinDVD's built in deinterlacer. However one of the new Vegas 6 features reportedly was improved frame rate conversion. Let's hope this also includes a good deinterlacer - finally...
Laurence wrote on 4/16/2005, 8:27 AM
What I wish is that I could do a deinterlace and save the deinterlaced file with the same quality that WinDVD or PowerDVD do on the fly.
Laurence wrote on 4/16/2005, 8:31 AM
I have Media Player Classic, but all I can get it to do is play the video at half size. When I zoom to 100%, 200% or full screen I just get a bigger letterbox. Maybe I need to check out a newer version.
B_JM wrote on 4/16/2005, 8:38 AM
maybe you need to select "video frame" -> "normal size"

not zoom
B_JM wrote on 4/16/2005, 8:40 AM
the deinterlace methods you can do with avisynth or virtualdub are better than either windvd or powerdvd or you can do exactly the same method they use ..

p@mast3rs wrote on 4/16/2005, 8:47 AM
Ive used avisynth with Gordian Knot but I wish I could just find a pre-made script for avisynth so I can archive some of the shows I record on my dvd recorder. I have no clue about writing a script from scratch even though I have followed about every guide I have seen.

B_JM, do you have a decent script you wouldnt mind sharing?
Laurence wrote on 4/16/2005, 8:57 AM
OK, I have the latest version of Media Player Classic, The video now can zoom and fill the screen. How do you get to the deinterlacing options?
mdopp wrote on 4/16/2005, 9:53 AM
"the deinterlace methods you can do with avisynth or virtualdub are better than either windvd or powerdvd or you can do exactly the same method they use .."

Sorry, I disagree.
I have tested WinDVD's "progressive" setting extensively and compared to all available deinterlacers for VirtualDub (down to the level of comparing screenshots of the same frames deinterlaced with various settings and programs). None of them comes close to what WinDVD does.
I suspect the available filters all do some sort of Weave and Bob (or a clever combination of both, like in "smooth deinterlacer"). However I never found a deinterlacer that actually does motion compensation like in WinDVD.
Therefore I second Laurence's whish for an equally good NLE solution.
mdopp wrote on 4/16/2005, 10:22 AM
Just for clarification here's a translation of the description of the most common deinterlacing methods as found in the c't-special "DigitalVideo" 01/05 (c't is THE most competent german magazine on computers):

WEAVE
Weave is not really a deinterlacing process. The two fields of a frame are just displayed at the same time. As long as the scene is static this works quite well. However as soon as there is motion you will see those infamous mice teeth. Furthermore the frame rate is effectively halfened. So every picture has to be shown twice in order to compensate.

BOB (both "blend fields" and "interpolate fields" in Vegas 5 are implementations of BOB algorithms)
Here the missing lines of each field are interpolated from the content of adjacent lines. Good deinterlacers use up to 6 lines for the interpolation. The original framerate is preserved. However the resolution is effectively halfened.

Adaptive Deinterlacing (aka Progressive in WinDVD)
"However there is a way to improve the quality of deinterlacing. Therefor the decoder has to account for not only the information of the current field but also of the adjacent fields. Pixel by pixel the content of the current field is compared to the preceding and following fields. If patterns are recognised those contents are moved into the current picture. Areas without counterpart are interpolated. A good adaptive deinterlacer is capable of producing perfectly sharp progressive pictures at the original framerate.
Current video chips of ATI and NVIDIA already use adaptive deinterlacing internally. However they analyze only the adjacent fields. Frame 2 results from fields 1, 2 and 3. Frame 3 from fields 2, 3 and 4 and so on. A more complex adaptive deinterlacer will search up to 5 fields in both directions. ...
In the meantime more and more manufacturers are implementing adaptive deinterlacers to their DVD-player-software. InterVideo was first with WinDVD 5 Platinum. However they incorporated a severe chroma error which resulted in colored shadow-images. Next was the chinese player Blaze-DVD 6.0 - with the same chroma error. The company Ahead from Karlsbad in Germany included their DVD-player Nero ShowTime into their CD/DVD-burning suite Nero 6. However their adaptive deinterlacer could be confused by complex video material. The first builts of WinDVD 6 Platinum included the same chroma bug as the predecessor but recent builts have apparently solved the issue. Finally Cyberlink released version 6.0 of their PowerDVD player including an adaptive deinterlacer so now the most prominent players are on the same level."

I'd be glad if anybody knew a filter for Vegas or VirtualDub using this technique.

Laurence wrote on 4/16/2005, 10:42 AM
I think that the difference is that WinDVD and PowerDVD are working at 60 fps and deinterlace by filling in the missing parts of the picture at that rate. The DV codec will only store video at 24,25 or 30 fps, and deinterlaces limited to those rates can't work as well.

It seems to me that the real solution for a NLE deinterlace that looks as good would be some kind of a bob and weave algorythm that was supersampled at 60 fps and reduced to 30 fps with some motion blur. As far as I know, nothing really does that yet.
akirasrebirth wrote on 4/16/2005, 12:40 PM
interesting link about deinterlacing : http://www.100fps.com/
B_JM wrote on 4/16/2005, 2:57 PM
in options , under mpeg decoder
B_JM wrote on 4/16/2005, 3:06 PM
sorry mdopp , you are wrong ... this has been tested extensively around the world .. perhaps you are not using the correct filters or syntax ?

anyway - I don't feel like getting into it, as we hashed this to death years ago on doom9 and videohelp ...

adaptive d-interlacing has been available for v-dub and avisyth for a long time http://biphome.spray.se/gunnart/video/AVSPorts/SmoothDeinterlacer/

there are also many other methods in many other apps (I like fusion for this)
Laurence wrote on 4/17/2005, 7:38 AM
After reading this, I went back to VDub to experiment again using Smooth Deinterlacer, Smart Deinterlacer, etc. I still can't get anywhere near as smooth a deinterlace as PowerDVD or WinDVD do on the fly. Maybe I just don't know the proper settings, or maybe you need AVISynth to do this properly.

Also, PowerDVD seems to do the on the fly deinterlace with a fraction of the CPU usage of WinDVD. With PowerDVD, my CPU usage averages around 16% with a full screen image. WinDVD is more in the 60% to 80% range with some 99% peaks. This is with hardware acceleration enabled in both programs. Also, if I disable the hardware acceleration on PowerDVD, the usage still stays at about the same low level.

On the subject of CPU usage, Windows Media Player 9 is horrendous: 80% and more with 99% peaks, while Media Player Classic is similar to PowerDVD with about 15% CPU usage. My CPU is a P4 3.06 with the old slower 533 bus.

Do Windows Media Player 9 and Media Player Classic deinterlace on the fly like PowerDVD and WinDVD do? It looks like they might, but I'm not sure.
epirb wrote on 4/17/2005, 8:02 AM
another strange thing I noticed is that Win DVD does not support dual monitor display, meaning if I try to move the Win DVD screen over to my secondary monitor or say to a LCD projector the video is Black.
Power DVD works fine on either monitor. You can even have the controls on one screen and the screen on the other.
Anybody know why or have a work around.
i have tried it on both my laptop and my main system.
mdopp wrote on 4/17/2005, 9:20 AM
B_JM worte:
"adaptive d-interlacing has been available for v-dub and avisyth for a long time http://biphome.spray.se/gunnart/video/AVSPorts/SmoothDeinterlacer/"

Laurence wrote:
"I still can't get anywhere near as smooth a deinterlace as PowerDVD or WinDVD do on the fly"

I found the same as Laurence. I've done a lot of tests with Smooth Deinterlacer. It's not nearly as good as WinDVD. In fact it's not much better than the integrated deinterlacers of Vegas Video.
B_JM wrote on 4/17/2005, 9:24 AM
powerdvd does a better job of de-interlacing than MPC (IMO) - though sometimes i see no diff.

WMP9 or 10 , as i always said, is crap ..




mdopp wrote on 4/17/2005, 9:38 AM
"I've done a lot of tests with Smooth Deinterlacer"
Sorry, have to correct myself. I did a lot of tests with SMART deinterlacer in VirtualDub.
The procedure of SMOOTH deinterlacer always seemed somewhat awkward to me (i.e. having to split frames in AviSynth first) so I never really tested it.

B_JM wrote on 4/17/2005, 9:47 AM
Video Deinterlace Methods (from dscaler website):



Video Deinterlace (Bob)
This method is based on Gunnar Thalin's VirtualDub filter. If it detects weaving artifacts in the current image it uses bob to get rid of them. This method has a tendency to bob rather too much and gives poor results on fine static images.

Video Deinterlace (Weave)
Similar to Video Deinterlace (Bob), however this method has a tendency to weave on moving images.

Video Deinterlace (2-Frame)
This method uses the current frame and the last two to determine whether to bob or weave a given pixel. This gives better results on both stationary and moving images than the above two methods however it uses more CPU.

Simple Weave
This method just combines the most recent even and odd fields. This causes motion artifacts and is provided for comparison.

Simple Bob
This uses only the most recent field and fills the lines in between with interpolated pixels. This method has in may ways been superceded by Scaler BOB.

Blended Clip
The BLENDED CLIP Deinterlace method is designed mostly for experimentation by those interested in what works for video deinterlacing. When it is selected it will pop up a control panel with many controls to adjust various parameters. These all correspond to Blc... parameters in the [Deinterlace] section of the DScaler.ini file and are documented there. It is probably not the single best method for anything but it can be used to create custom deinterlace methods for special purposes. These can be saved in a separate ini file and invoked by a command line parameter when starting DScaler.exe. Somewhat CPU intensive

Scaler Bob
Uses the DirectDraw hardware bob feature (if available), this uses the current field and lets the video card scaler size the picture to fit the screen. Produces good results for fast moving images.

Even Fields Only
Odd Fields Only
These use only one field out of each pair and use hardware scaling. This reduces bob artifacts at the cost of loss of information. These were originally intended to be used with game consoles.

Adaptive Deinterlace
This method uses the amount of motion detected to select the best deinterlacing alogoritm. Currently by default it switches between 2-Frame and weave.

Greedy deinterlace method
The GREEDY Deinterlace method is designed to give good results on low motion video source, using less CPU than some others. Good on slower machines but it will give awful results on high motion video material like sports. Quite by accident, it can also do a decent job on poorly mastered 3:2 or 2:2 pull down film source material like some anime movies, regardless of low or high motion. Try it if you have a movie source that is not giving good results with normal Auto Pull Down processing.

Greedy 2 Frame method
This method tries to combine the best features of the 2-frame algorithm with the looking ahead ability of the greedy method. I find this methods works well on sports and other high motion material. With static images and low quality sources there may be unacceptable levels of bobbing.

3:2 Pulldown, Skip Field X
Mostly on NTSC format, on a 24-fps film material, the material is encoded as 48 fields (24 odd and 24 even). Each frame will be alternatingly played 3 and 2 times respectively. With regard to fields, the order played will be come: Odd, Even, Odd (of frame 1) and Even, Odd (of Frame 2), and so on. In order to create a pure progressive image (which is 1 frame of the 24-fps material), DScaler will only need to take the odd and even field, weaves them together, skip the next odd frame and wait until the next odd and even field arrives, weaves them together and put it out again. In the field sequence, out of every 5 field, 1 field can be skipped. That field that is skipped will be the number displayed on the pulldown Skip Field. If all the sequences are coming in as perfect as described, and DScaler detects it perfectly, the 3:2 pulldown method selected will always be set the same. If the PC is rather slow (dropping fields), or the sequence is altered (abruptly changing scenes), or DScaler's tolerance in comparison is exceeded, it will retry to lock again to the 3:2 pulldown, and might end up with a different field to skip.

2:2 Pulldown
PAL movies are made of sequences of 2:2 frames. Once such a sequence is detected, the Odd and Even fields are taken, weaved to form 1 frame of the 24-fps material, and displayed.