Will we ever be able to produce Blu-Ray disks?

Coursedesign wrote on 2/8/2008, 2:05 PM
I'm talking about being able to produce and sell (BD-R/BD-RE) BDMV Blu-Ray disks, the only BR high definition disks that are somewhat equivalent to regular DVDs.

There is also a blu-ray BDAV format that is more like playing a VHS tape, not nearly as attractive for selling product.

I just received a link to the following HD DVD campaign blog web page:
http://www.campaignhd.com/807_BDR_Playback.html

Wouldn't care, except some of the things they are saying seem quite possible (excerpted below):

The news first started to break on the Roxio user forums. One user created a BDMV production, which he burned to his Bluray BD-R disc, took it to his local electronics store to test on the new Sony BDP 300 player. It wouldn't play....so he posted queries on the Roxio site. ..another poster at Roxio reported that his friend at Pioneer had told him that Pioneer had been FORCED by Sony to remove BD-Recordable BDMV playback from their new player coming out, and ALSO that he believes that new players from Panasonic were also similarly affected.
________________________________________________________

Does anyone have official or other information on this? Will commercial videographers/filmmakers etc. have to sell their high definition content on BDAV with no normal navigation menus, or on external harddisks, or on HD DVD-formatted red laser DVDs?

Comments

waratahbay wrote on 2/9/2008, 3:57 AM
It's hard to know what to make of this. I can make BDMV blu-ray disks on both BD-R and BD-RE and they are read, and play, as BD-ROMs on both my Sony BDP-S300 and my Pioneer LX70A, both of which have had official firmware updates in the last month. There are also threads on this forum about making BDMV disks.
Coursedesign wrote on 2/9/2008, 6:42 AM
Well, the threads here only say that it has been possible.

I'm glad you've been able to play back on these players with current firmware!

Oddly, the BDP-S300 box doesn't seem to indicate that it can play BD-R or BD-RE disks. Or did I miss something?


Coursedesign wrote on 2/9/2008, 6:43 AM
Well, the threads here only say that it has been possible.

I'm glad you've been able to play back on these players with current firmware!

Oddly, the BDP-S300 box doesn't seem to indicate that it can play BD-R or BD-RE disks. Or did I miss something?


blink3times wrote on 2/9/2008, 6:50 AM
Your link doesn't work... here it is:

http://www.campaignhd.com/807_BDR_Playback.html

And first it should be pointed out that your link is fairly old (relatively speaking) and many of the machines have had firmware updates since it was written.

There has been a tremendous amount of rumor and speculation on this, and so far it is just that. But the scary thing about this is that Sony has yet to set a minimum standard so what we have today COULD easily and quickly change for the worse tomorrow.

But what is clear is that there are 2 ways to burn.... BDAV and BDMV and one has to wonder why. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to create a very rudimentary disk (BDAV) when there is BDMV available. My OPINION is that there has always been intent by Sony to create a 2-tier system.... one for people like us, and one for the studios and big time pros

I remember when Ulead had Movie Factory 5 out for trial down load for about 2 weeks complete with BDMV authoring for BD-r and then it was suddenly yanked from the site and came back a week ot 2 later WITHOUT the BDMV ability. So at minimum, there is some kind of struggle going on with BDMV.

Things have been a BIT more relaxed lately with BDMV and I think the war has had something to do with that, but because of the missing standard.... what is given today can easily be taken away tomorrow.

One more thing to think about... we know that DRM is becoming a serious issue, and not only are they attacking it from the software end, but they are also beginning to attack from the hardware end as well.

But without that minimum standard, it's hard to tell where Sony is going with all of this and I am puzzled as to why they have been so lax in coming forth with one


"or on HD DVD-formatted red laser DVDs"
Toshiba has in fact written a minimum standard and fully authored red laser disks (3x dvd) are included in the minimum spec so this will not change. This option will be here to stay.
Coursedesign wrote on 2/9/2008, 11:53 AM
If Sony tries to cripple Blu-Ray that way, they will more than shoot themselves in the foot.

They will be like the bankrobber who put a Colt .45 Automatic in his waistband, only to have it go off on the way out of the bank when success "was his to lose."

Well, at least he won't have any offspring, and neither will Sony if they cripple Blu-Ray.

MH_Stevens wrote on 2/9/2008, 1:41 PM
Look it doesn't matter. Didn't you read the thread? Blu-Ray is going to loose.
4eyes wrote on 2/9/2008, 1:45 PM
Interesting, here's some specs:
BDP-S300 Specs:
BD-ROM = YES / BD-R/RE Read Compatibility = NO

BDP-BDP-S500 Specs:
BD-R/RE Read Compatibility = Yes (BDMV format)

BDP-S2000ES Specs:
BD-R/RE Read Compatibility = Yes (BDMV format)

Thanks for posting that info, I wasn't aware that the BDP-S300 wasn't certified for BD writeable media.
Always read the specs right?
Coursedesign wrote on 2/9/2008, 2:20 PM
This would seem to indicate that Blu-Ray is not a delivery option for wedding videographers, corporate videographers, educators, independent filmmakers, etc. in the way that DVD-Rs were, because it would seem to be a very low probability that customers would have high-end players.

So the search goes on for a useable high definition format.


DJPadre wrote on 2/9/2008, 5:25 PM
could it be that THIS issue is what has hamstrung DVDA.... ?

Needless to say i am not impressed.. i mean cmon lets face it.. do u buy a blank BD disc for 27bux and burn a ripped copy of a movie on it, or to you pay the extra 8 bux and save yourself the headache of a potential 27dollar coaster...? How stupid do they they think we are?
waratahbay wrote on 2/9/2008, 6:35 PM
From the official Sony support site at http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/swu-download.pl?mdl=BDPS300&upd_id=3239&os_id=30
:

"This utility updates the BDP-S300 firmware to version 3.70, and provides the following benefits:

Improvements over firmware version 3.30:

* Improves BD-Java compatibility to enhance interactivity with some BD-ROMs.

Additional improvements over original firmware:

* Compatibility with the newly released BD-R/RE format (BDMV).
* Improves BD-Java compatibility to enhance interactivity with some BD-ROMs."

I have been playing self-authored BDMV BD/Rs and BD/REs from 2 firmware upgrades ago on my S300. Sony needs to get much better at advertising/promoting these things unless of course, as some here are saying, they are really fence-sitting.
Coursedesign wrote on 2/9/2008, 8:24 PM
Thanks!

That sounds like really good news.

Let's hope the other players on the market follow suit!

Maybe there is a market here after all...

blink3times wrote on 2/10/2008, 2:09 PM
Let's hope the other players on the market follow suit!

http://blog.wired.com/business/2008/02/samsung-sued-ov.html

Suit.... get the pun? :)
Coursedesign wrote on 2/10/2008, 3:14 PM
Blink,

That's another problem. Samsung's player wouldn't play several store-bought Blu-Ray titles that played fine on Sony/Panasonic, etc. players after firmware updates, and Samsung just told their customers, "Well, tough!"

No more Samsung gear for me, that attitude is scary.

DJPadre wrote on 2/11/2008, 2:24 AM
speaking of Samsung, i jsut bought a 100hz 25k:1 46' LCD 1920x1080p F8 panel for $3450. It coms with a free 26' panel worth about a grand...
This promo they have, runs till the end of this month.. but get this..

the panels are OUT OF STOCK until early mid march.

By then, the panel HAS been paid for and will, by then, depreciate in value.
Samsungs response was that it was too bad. They dont control prices.

You either leave the purchase as it is, wait a month and get the freeby tv as well, or cancel the order, wait until they regain stock which might decrease the price of the unit due to our dollar fluctuation in addition to availability.
By then the free tv promo is over.
I was only told this AFTER i paid for the panel and enquired as to my delivery.

Mind you the unti is worth about 4k, but the fact remains, they offered these free LCD tvs with the larger panels to keep sales moving, knowing full well that they had 900 units prepurchased and backordered which they are now waiting on.
Selling things without telling peole they were out of stock... clever way of marketing.. which is what happened to my wife with Burnout Paradise.. but thats another story..

The only saving grace here is the fact that i can sell the freeby tv for 800bux which would leave me with more $ even if i did wait for my origianl panel ot come into stock with a lower price tag (prolly a couple hundred at the most anyway)

In any case, they made no apologies for misleading the sales transaction as they are fully aware that there is no stock in the country. BUT they still make the transaction and offer the freeby

Sony did something similar with free PS3's with Bravias, but frankly these panels are shite compared to the new Samsung range.
ve waited a VERY long time for a panel to offer this kind of image and even though im a plasma purist nothing came close.. The new sharp range was good, but it missed out by simple overpricing.

I never thought id buy Samsung anything, but once you see these panels in action, you KNOW that things have changed.

In any case, i now wait for my panel to arrive. Not happy and its another month of running the AE700, but you get that I guess.



blink3times wrote on 2/11/2008, 5:46 AM
I'm not so sure you can point the blame directly on Samsung here. While it is true that others managed to get firmware updates out to handle BD+, It was a hell of a scramble and no one was quite prepared to have BD+ thrust upon them at that moment.

Unfortunately I find that the BDA has been pretty good at paying the blame game... HD DVD was blamed for forcing the BDA out onto the market prematurely, and the customers were blamed for buying this stuff so early (Sony was quoted as saying "Early adopters new what they were getting into")
JJKizak wrote on 2/11/2008, 5:56 AM
I haven't had much luck with Samsung stuff. They always forget to design something into the product. My T165 tuner burned up. The second one had way too much overscan, like around 30%. And if I didn't have an external fan on it the unit would have burned up also.
JJK
Coursedesign wrote on 2/11/2008, 6:30 AM
I'm not so sure you can point the blame directly on Samsung here.

For refusing to help customers whose players wouldn't play store-bought Blu-Ray disks?

a) Tell that to the judge.

b) Tell that to customers who are choosing between any kind of product from Samsung vs. Sony, Panasonic, LG, etc.

TheHappyFriar wrote on 2/11/2008, 8:17 AM
we shouldn't depend on firmware updates. a required update (to fix a major issue like it not reading certain movies from studios, for example) could very well take features we expected away. It's done with consoles & computer games now a days.