Thanks for the reply, Aaron ... spot on information ... and EXACTLY
the kind of "hands on" knowledge I was looking for.

Hmmmm, we do have the G400 Dual Head ... really nice, but I am not
sure about Win2k support for the card? I would sure love to transfer
it to that dual processor box that is available.

Thanks again for the informative reply!

KAC ...

Aaron Carey wrote:

>>I am using win2k with a pair of Soundscape Mixtreme PCI cards
>>These cards have 16 channels of TDIF I/O each
>>I am getting 32 channels TDIF I/O with a single PIII 450, 256 megs
>>ram and UDMA 66 IDE drives on a promise Ultra66 controller, I am
>>hoping soon to have a Matrox dual out video card as I am currently
>>running two separate video cards
>>
>>The mixtreme card kicks ass, and if you pay some extra money to
>>soundscape you get KILLER DSP on the card itself, from TC
>>electronics, Apogee, Aphex and others, plus an spdif option
>>There are also many ADC's available from soundscape and others for
>>this card as it is fully TDIF compatiable, but since I also have
>>TASCAM DA-series machines, I just use them as convertors....I am
>>looking into getting one converter set, as Soundscapes converters
>>have a workaround for TASCAM's unfortunate lack of bi-
directionality
>>(ok so the ADAT has one point going for it over TASCAM, but Id
rather
>>NOT see my tapes eaten)
>>
>>Mixtreme now has support for automation control surfaces, and I am
>>starting to use this until Sonic Foundry supports this in vegas

2000 Professional or Server .... or does Vegas care?

KAC ...

Aaron Carey wrote:

>>I am using win2k with a pair of Soundscape Mixtreme PCI cards

Karl Caillouet wrote:
>>
>>2000 Professional or Server .... or does Vegas care?
>>
>>KAC ...
>>


Im just using win2k professional
I want to upgrade to dual processors, thats why I am running
win2k...plus the monitor support is so much better
I had to wait for midiman to update their midisport USB drivers and
for echo to do their win2k drivers

I am now very happy working in win2k, I cant believe its a microsoft
product! Vegas crashes sooo much less now.
Im real interested in learning more about and trying the new dynamic
volumes that this OS supports

HI!i am using Motu2408 and Vegas i have also a dualprocessor board
and i have also win2k but under win2k i can only work with the
reserve soundcard (soundblaster live(no good)).
Motu told me they are win2k drivers already constructing but they can
not tell me when they are finished.
I am waiting so hard, caus i start a really large and cpupower using
project in sept 2k - so lets force Motu to go on!!!!!!
please help!
Walter

Aaron Carey wrote:
>>
>>
>>Karl Caillouet wrote:
>>>>
>>>>2000 Professional or Server .... or does Vegas care?
>>>>
>>>>KAC ...
>>>>
>>
>>
>>Im just using win2k professional
>>I want to upgrade to dual processors, thats why I am running
>>win2k...plus the monitor support is so much better
>>I had to wait for midiman to update their midisport USB drivers and
>>for echo to do their win2k drivers
>>
>>I am now very happy working in win2k, I cant believe its a
microsoft
>>product! Vegas crashes sooo much less now.
>>Im real interested in learning more about and trying the new
dynamic
>>volumes that this OS supports

Walterius Till wrote:
>>HI!i am using Motu2408 and Vegas i have also a dualprocessor board
>>and i have also win2k but under win2k i can only work with the
>>reserve soundcard (soundblaster live(no good)).
>>Motu told me they are win2k drivers already constructing but they
can
>>not tell me when they are finished.
>>I am waiting so hard, caus i start a really large and cpupower
using
>>project in sept 2k - so lets force Motu to go on!!!!!!
>>please help!
>>Walter

Seems like a lot of the players are real reluctant about win2k
drivers...
I dont understand it, they blamed for years the publics preference
for non-NT OS's for all the problems of their harware, well, here's
an NT style OS, and no drivers?
I gave echo and midiman some "love mail" but still it took quite a
while for their drivers, and the echo is still BETA!

Maybe if you could make a "form-letter" style e-mail, for anyone
interested to copy, sign and send to the offending company themselves
you might get some results.

Always happy to sign a complaint,
Aaron Carey
Pipelineaudio

Hi Walterius,

Don't hold your breath. I first approached MOTU about NT/Win2k
drivers in April of 99 .... the story has always been the
same ... "Our engineers are working on them but we cannot give you
any further information than that."

I have called them repeatedly on this issue, and again yesterday,
with the same results ... they can shove it as far as I am concerned.
I can also guarantee you that the woman answering the phone for them
at the moment wouldn't last 5 minutes in my employ.

We are a longstanding, sucessful commercial recording studio with a
legitimate equipment budget and the way I was treated by MOTU
yesterday they can pretty well rest assured that it won't be spent
with them.

Based on Aaron's input, I spent the morning on the phone with
Soundscape out in California about the Mixtreme line of products and
it looks very interesting ... but I hate to purchase without a
listening test.

Perhaps Aaron can give us some more input on the Mixtreme and nuts
and bolts on how he uses it with Vegas? It seems like I have to
purchase a number of pieces to get the same functionality as MOTU and
they seem to take up a lot of PCI slots, which kind of has me worried
if we go in that direction.

Stay tuned.

KAC ...

Walterius Till wrote:
>>HI!i am using Motu2408 and Vegas i have also a dualprocessor board
>>and i have also win2k but under win2k i can only work with the
>>reserve soundcard (soundblaster live(no good)).
>>Motu told me they are win2k drivers already constructing but they
can
>>not tell me when they are finished.
>>I am waiting so hard, caus i start a really large and cpupower
using
>>project in sept 2k - so lets force Motu to go on!!!!!!
>>please help!
>>Walter
>>
>>Aaron Carey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Karl Caillouet wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2000 Professional or Server .... or does Vegas care?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>KAC ...
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Im just using win2k professional
>>>>I want to upgrade to dual processors, thats why I am running
>>>>win2k...plus the monitor support is so much better
>>>>I had to wait for midiman to update their midisport USB drivers
and
>>>>for echo to do their win2k drivers
>>>>
>>>>I am now very happy working in win2k, I cant believe its a
>>microsoft
>>>>product! Vegas crashes sooo much less now.
>>>>Im real interested in learning more about and trying the new
>>dynamic
>>>>volumes that this OS supports

Here's the deal, short-short version:

Windows 3.1, 95 and 98 are all DOS-based enviroments (yes, the 640k
limit is still there, in a sense), and as such, you can treat your
hardware the way you choose, and every other program can do the same.
This means that when you're writing a driver for your hardware, you
simply check that it works on your computer, upload the driver to the
corporate FTP and that's the end of it.

When Microsoft created Windows NT (an acronym for New Technology),
they realized that this driver model, a legacy of their earlier
Windows versions, had too many shortcomings. The way you wrote
drivers for Windows 95 more or less encouraged anarchy among third-
party developers, since no driver will ever check if there's another
driver present that might interfere with it. We all know the effects;
IRQ conflicts, DMA priority hassle, hang-ups, reboots, bluescreens.
Not even the new hardware identification standard known as plug-and-
play helped much.

Therefore, Microsoft set up strict rules for their new driver model:
No device driver can ever communicate directly with the peripherial,
before asking for NT's permission first. Hence, no crashes, but
decreased performance. Although, with the capacity and prestanda of
modern computer systems, this is not much of a problem.

The NT driver model was kept and refined into what is now known as
WDM, or Windows Driver Model. This is a strict, intricate set of
restrictions and rules for writing a device driver for NT-based
Windows versions (Windows 98 and ME can also run WDM drivers after
some minor adjustments) which will provide increased stability to an
NT-based operating system, i.e NT4, Windows 2000 (NT5) and their
sequels.

The problem is, obviously, that audio hardware manufacturers have
trouble keeping up with all the new whims and ideas of Microsoft and
the other OS developers, hence WDM driver development goes slow.
We've seen it all before, audio companies promising drivers for all
kinds of systems before they realize the scope of supporting that
promise (Terratec, anyone?)

So, in the essence, Windows 2000 is a very good operating system, but
there's a grave shortage in drivers for the hardware, especially in
the audio sector.

I would suggest you take a look at what you need, and, if possible,
split your interests in two OS:es or, if you have the cash, two
computers. This is exactly what I do: I run a small win 98 setup with
Emagic Logic and drivers for my MOTU MIDI express for music
production and quick recording, and a larger Win2k rig with Vegas for
the rest of the production chain such as audio mastering, sound
effects management and video production.

The reason I chose Win2k? I do not require multi-channel output
cards, ADAT interfaces or DSP factories, since I work exclusively in
the digital domain. Win2k is more stable, less buggy and the NTFS
file system is imperative for safe data management. (Please bear in
mind that the FAT file system, which Windows 95 and 98 use, was
designed for drives up to 540 mb and transfers speeds about 1/10th of
current standard HD performance)

aron Carey wrote:
>>
>>
>>Walterius Till wrote:
>>>>HI!i am using Motu2408 and Vegas i have also a dualprocessor
board
>>>>and i have also win2k but under win2k i can only work with the
>>>>reserve soundcard (soundblaster live(no good)).
>>>>Motu told me they are win2k drivers already constructing but they
>>can
>>>>not tell me when they are finished.
>>>>I am waiting so hard, caus i start a really large and cpupower
>>using
>>>>project in sept 2k - so lets force Motu to go on!!!!!!
>>>>please help!
>>>>Walter
>>
>>Seems like a lot of the players are real reluctant about win2k
>>drivers...
>>I dont understand it, they blamed for years the publics preference
>>for non-NT OS's for all the problems of their harware, well, here's
>>an NT style OS, and no drivers?
>>I gave echo and midiman some "love mail" but still it took quite a
>>while for their drivers, and the echo is still BETA!
>>
>>Maybe if you could make a "form-letter" style e-mail, for anyone
>>interested to copy, sign and send to the offending company
themselves
>>you might get some results.
>>
>>Always happy to sign a complaint,
>>Aaron Carey
>>Pipelineaudio

>>Don't hold your breath. I first approached MOTU about NT/Win2k
>>drivers in April of 99 .... the story has always been the
>>same ... "Our engineers are working on them but we cannot give you
>>any further information than that."
>>


note to manufaturers of ANY hardware/software product
WE HATE THIS!!!


>>We are a longstanding, sucessful commercial recording studio with a
>>legitimate equipment budget and the way I was treated by MOTU
>>yesterday they can pretty well rest assured that it won't be spent
>>with them.


Used to be, in the early days, that had some weight and pull to it,
but it seems now that the mass marketing attitude is pushing the
priorities of the companies from professional users to majority of
users


>>Perhaps Aaron can give us some more input on the Mixtreme and nuts
>>and bolts on how he uses it with Vegas? It seems like I have to
>>purchase a number of pieces to get the same functionality as MOTU
and
>>they seem to take up a lot of PCI slots, which kind of has me
worried
>>if we go in that direction.


Well, I am not in soundscape's employ, and I use other cards too,
for other functions, but I can tell you, Soundscape products are the
only cards Ive ever seen for the PC( the company RME is getting close
but not yet ) that brings the term "professional" to mind. The thing
just plugged in and worked!!! After I put the included software on,
it did even more.
Thinking forward, the card was born with a 24 bit datastream, and
if I'm not mistaken, now has the ability to carry 96kHz as well. Im
not sure how this will work, as I thought the TDIF datastream was
limited to 48k. Also there was a midi interface included, for
possible functions later on...They never claimed to have MIDI, they
just stuck it on there, in case they needed it later. Well, later is
NOW. they have implemented MIDI control over there mixer parameters.
Nice going Soundscape! This is just an example of how I think the
attitude of a company should be, and they certainly live up to it.

I hope youy have had a chance to talk to Guy at soundscape. he
doesn't particularly care for Vegas, but he doesn't particularly care
for Nuendo either. Of course they have their own HD recording system,
so, take that for what it's worth. You will find him to be extremely
knowledgeable, friendly, helpful, and HONEST...he has the ONE quality
that is SO SO SO lacking in the "pro" audio industry lately, if he
doesn't know something, he is by some miracle able to utter the
words " I don't know "....I wish there were many more like him!!!

The mixer that comes with the mixtreme is so completely
configurable, that you will find uses for it to bypass many of the
I/O jokes of windows based PC DAW operating environments.

The DSP available on this card is growing every time I look on
the website! TC electronics, Apogee, and Aphex, to name a few...You
can buy the card just to add EIGHT stereo in/ stereo out FX
processors to your studio!

I can see where your apprehensions are from: the card is digital
only. For me this is not a problem, as I use my TASCAM units to do
all the conversions....I have made myself a TDIF patchbay using short
runs of ribbon cables and crimp on DB-25 connectors to handle any
swaps I may need. I am going to get one of the Soundscape AD/DA boxes
beacause I would like to have bidirectionality for FX and such.

If I'm not mistaken, the MOTU only has 8 analog I/O's (not
counting the digital ones), so it would seem to require only one
converter set to replace your current ones....Your 2408 could still
handle TDIF to ADAT conversions, as I far as I know, and probably
still do the 8 analog I/O's straight to the mixtreme, ask Guy, he can
tell you.

If theres any specifics you want to know, from my experience
trying to break this thing, let me know. Forums, e-mail, phone call,
whatever....
Also, I'd check out those RME Hammerfall cards
good luck
Let me know what all you find out

Aaron carey
Pipelineaudio
(602)275-8842
pipelineaudio@angelfire.com

Victor Harriman wrote:
>>Where is the problem then? When the engineer-wannabe reads EQ
magazine


I think that magazine is 99.9 percent of the problem


>>But when your SIMULTANEOUS needs include: a midi interface, midi
and
>>audio tracks, an audio card with multiple in/outs, signal
monitoring
>>WITH/WITHOUT Fx's, etc, you can't go with Win2k. Midi is a HUGE
>>problem there.
>>


What IS the problem with MIDI in win2k?
I keep hearing about it, yet, it has not affected me as far as I
know...

I use MIDI only for sync, so my SY-88 can send MTC to keep my trracks
in order when I transfer my DA tracks to the PC

The MIDI probs I used to have were that Vegas used to crash when
recording in sync...1.0b fixed that a lot, and so far in win2k, I
havent had the prob yet....still I get "false" recordings a lot, and
have like ten "recording 1...recording 2...etc" stuck in my folder, I
wonder what that's about

HI!Glad to have the forum as a prof. forum again!
Thanx for info, but could you give some more info about soundscape
and its costs. I´m lookin for a solution with win2k.
Thanks a lot and regards
Walterius

Aaron Carey wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Don't hold your breath. I first approached MOTU about NT/Win2k
>>>>drivers in April of 99 .... the story has always been the
>>>>same ... "Our engineers are working on them but we cannot give
you
>>>>any further information than that."
>>>>
>>
>>
>>note to manufaturers of ANY hardware/software product
>>WE HATE THIS!!!
>>
>>
>>>>We are a longstanding, sucessful commercial recording studio with
a
>>>>legitimate equipment budget and the way I was treated by MOTU
>>>>yesterday they can pretty well rest assured that it won't be
spent
>>>>with them.
>>
>>
>>Used to be, in the early days, that had some weight and pull to it,
>>but it seems now that the mass marketing attitude is pushing the
>>priorities of the companies from professional users to majority of
>>users
>>
>>
>>>>Perhaps Aaron can give us some more input on the Mixtreme and
nuts
>>>>and bolts on how he uses it with Vegas? It seems like I have to
>>>>purchase a number of pieces to get the same functionality as MOTU
>>and
>>>>they seem to take up a lot of PCI slots, which kind of has me
>>worried
>>>>if we go in that direction.
>>
>>
>> Well, I am not in soundscape's employ, and I use other cards
too,
>>for other functions, but I can tell you, Soundscape products are
the
>>only cards Ive ever seen for the PC( the company RME is getting
close
>>but not yet ) that brings the term "professional" to mind. The
thing
>>just plugged in and worked!!! After I put the included software on,
>>it did even more.
>> Thinking forward, the card was born with a 24 bit datastream,
and
>>if I'm not mistaken, now has the ability to carry 96kHz as well. Im
>>not sure how this will work, as I thought the TDIF datastream was
>>limited to 48k. Also there was a midi interface included, for
>>possible functions later on...They never claimed to have MIDI, they
>>just stuck it on there, in case they needed it later. Well, later
is
>>NOW. they have implemented MIDI control over there mixer
parameters.
>>Nice going Soundscape! This is just an example of how I think the
>>attitude of a company should be, and they certainly live up to it.
>>
>> I hope youy have had a chance to talk to Guy at soundscape. he
>>doesn't particularly care for Vegas, but he doesn't particularly
care
>>for Nuendo either. Of course they have their own HD recording
system,
>>so, take that for what it's worth. You will find him to be
extremely
>>knowledgeable, friendly, helpful, and HONEST...he has the ONE
quality
>>that is SO SO SO lacking in the "pro" audio industry lately, if he
>>doesn't know something, he is by some miracle able to utter the
>>words " I don't know "....I wish there were many more like him!!!
>>
>> The mixer that comes with the mixtreme is so completely
>>configurable, that you will find uses for it to bypass many of the
>>I/O jokes of windows based PC DAW operating environments.
>>
>> The DSP available on this card is growing every time I look on
>>the website! TC electronics, Apogee, and Aphex, to name a few...You
>>can buy the card just to add EIGHT stereo in/ stereo out FX
>>processors to your studio!
>>
>> I can see where your apprehensions are from: the card is
digital
>>only. For me this is not a problem, as I use my TASCAM units to do
>>all the conversions....I have made myself a TDIF patchbay using
short
>>runs of ribbon cables and crimp on DB-25 connectors to handle any
>>swaps I may need. I am going to get one of the Soundscape AD/DA
boxes
>>beacause I would like to have bidirectionality for FX and such.
>>
>> If I'm not mistaken, the MOTU only has 8 analog I/O's (not
>>counting the digital ones), so it would seem to require only one
>>converter set to replace your current ones....Your 2408 could still
>>handle TDIF to ADAT conversions, as I far as I know, and probably
>>still do the 8 analog I/O's straight to the mixtreme, ask Guy, he
can
>>tell you.
>>
>> If theres any specifics you want to know, from my experience
>>trying to break this thing, let me know. Forums, e-mail, phone
call,
>>whatever....
>>Also, I'd check out those RME Hammerfall cards
>>good luck
>>Let me know what all you find out
>>
>>Aaron carey
>>Pipelineaudio
>>(602)275-8842
>>pipelineaudio@angelfire.com
>>