Workflow Frustration: Vegas -vs- Ppro

Cliff Etzel wrote on 5/22/2007, 1:24 PM
So I'm taking GlennChan's advice and posting a follow up question from the Vegas 8 thread

I think the biggest challenge I have in working with Vegas, and which has kept me a die hard PPro user is how things are done for a simple task like adding a title and using keyframes to have it move to another spot or doing color correction.

Color correction in Vegas is utter frustration for me, but then again, it may be the way things are done as compared to PPro. I find the color corrector in PPro to be more user friendly and intuitive as compared to Vegas. I took a project I recently completed in PPro and replicated the project in Vegas - with frustrating results. Color correction was a discourse in frustration as compared to PPro. I never could get accurate color matches throughout the various clips as I could in PPro.

Then there is the matter of applying a title - again, an absolute breeze in PPro, a less than simple affair in Vegas. Then applying keyframes to a title in PPro is as simple as setting in and out points and applying them and it just works - I have yet to fathom how to apply keyframes efficiently in Vegas.

In PPro, if I want to unlink the audio track from the video track, I can do so in 2 clicks and then delete either track accordingly. I have yet to find a way to do so in Vegas (although I am sure it can be done - I just can't find it - even with using the help function)

The reason why I'm posting this is that I see Vegas as a valuable tool for field editing for Solo Video Journalists. Doing straight cut edits and dissolves is all I need. The reduced resources used, being about as hardware neutral as an application can be, lends itself well to VJ's working on tight budgets and short deadlines.

I have gone over the SONY Seminar Series Vegas Training Disks but I felt like I was given only a small taste of what I needed and left with a sense of frustration over what was missing in the series.

Maybe I'm just venting my frustration after having worked with FCP for a couple of hours recently and finding it's interface comfortable and intuitive - along the same lines as my trusty PPro 1.5.1. I've read from others who say the Vegas interface takes some getting use to, but it shouldn't be this difficult - should it? I work with Acid Pro, Sound Forge and Cinescore and find they all work very well at what they do, but Vegas always seems like it is missing something - again, I am willing to learn if I can just find the answers.

I sure would appreciate any insights other have on this.

Cliff Etzel
bluprojekt

Comments

kentwolf wrote on 5/22/2007, 1:31 PM
(Doing this all from memory)

>>...I want to unlink the audio track from the video track...

Select the video and audio element, press letter "u" for ungroup or remove from group. (Right clicking when both events are selected will show you the options available) You can also click Ignore Event Grouping on the toolbar or something to that effect to effectively ungroup them temporarily.

There's a few ways to add a title, drag onto the timeline from Generated Media or make a small selection on the timeline and right-click add generated media and select text.

These events are really, really easy, but if you're not familiar with it, then it may not seem that way.
farss wrote on 5/22/2007, 1:35 PM
With Vegas make more use of the unlimited tracks. For example put your title on it's own track, then use track motion to move the title, makes the keyframing a snap.
Unlock / delete an audio track is a snap too, my biggest complaint compare to PPro is it's too easy to do in Vegas. You just ungroup the audio track and delete it.
Can't really comment on the CC, but I think you're right, PPro does excel at this from what I remember of it.

Bob.
GlennChan wrote on 5/22/2007, 2:00 PM
You can animated titles from within the title controls.

In your video generated media, click the placement tab. To keyframe your movement, you need to scrub the bottom part of that window (there is a second playhead there). Move it to the end, and click on the create keyframe icon with the plus sign (or hit insert).

2- Not sure what you mean about Premiere Pro's color correction. I found it really kludgey.

Color curves and color corrector in Vegas should behave like the 3-way in PPro.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 5/22/2007, 2:02 PM
Unlimited tracks - now that does go against how I have done things in PPro - instead limiting the number of tracks I work with to keep things fairly organized (I typically never use more than 4 at most)

I can't believe how simple that was to ungroup audio from video.. (U=Ungroup) - DUH!

Now the color correction issue - What are the most utilized features for color correction - maybe I am seeing it incorrectly.

Keyframes is another feature I use semi regularly - mainly to slide in titles and such, I'm getting a sense this is sinking in finally. :-)

Thanks guys!

Cliff Etzel
bluprojekt
Laurence wrote on 5/22/2007, 2:33 PM
Yeah, the Vegas titler isn't that great. Heroglyph Rapid however is really good and really fast:

http://www.prodad.de/gb/heroglyph_std_details.html

Some people like Boris Grafitti as well, but I couldn't make heads or tails of the demo. I figured out Heroglyph in a few minutes though and really like it. The cheaper "Rapid" version is all you need. The extra features of the full version are redundant (and not as well done) with Vegas.

Vegas color correction is really good once you get used to it.
farss wrote on 5/22/2007, 2:52 PM
It's funny how everyone likes to knock the titler in Vegas but here's my recent experience from working with a client versed in the graphic arts. All was going well until we got to the "Now we need to add some titles and supers" bit of the edit.

Well my heart sank, Vegas had been flying so far, smoking the Avoid systems this guy normally works around. Best to fess up I thought before we started. "Sorry but I can't do bevelled chrome text with the letters flying in one at a time". There was a very polite "Good thing I'm here to supervise, (pregnant pause) now what fonts have you got, we need to match the fonts and colors in their corporate brochure". Would be nice if Vegas's titler could have a go at matching Pantone colors without having to convert Pantone to RGB but that's a pretty big ask given licencing issues.

Bob.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 5/22/2007, 4:23 PM
Sounds like some of the frustrations I feel regarding the built in titling feature in Vegas (Adobe really did think out the process of their titler in PPro - it might not seem like much, but if you use it enough, it can make all the difference in the world).

I'm going to give Heroglyph a try and see how it works - supposedly plugs into Vegas. Might be the work around I am looking for - we'll see.

Now onto that matter of that color corrector...

Cliff Etzel
bluprojekt
GlennChan wrote on 5/22/2007, 9:18 PM
Some handy CC stuff:

Using levels to affect exposure in Vegas.
[url=http://www.vasst.com/resource.aspx?id=a7a8c403-64dc-420d-97d0-90d2f8de9fc1]
(The sample clip for the DVD also has some useful info on bumping contrast in your shots.)

Color corrector:
The minus sign eyedroppers will make a particular range in the image neutral if you click on a neutral color in that range. Do the highlight dropper first, then the midtone dropper (usually you don't need to use the shadow dropper unless there is colored lights flaring into the lens). If white balance ain't perfect, use the secondary CC to de-saturate highlights.

2- Bob re: your Pantone issue
Is it that horrible to manually convert the values in Photoshop?
Though you have to convert from computer RGB values to studio RGB values in Vegas likely (depending on what color space / range you are targeting).

And home viewers usually have inaccurate color, so the colors likely won't translate perfectly.

*Not sure how to setup Photoshop to give you the right RGB values for Rec. 709 or SMPTE C or EBU colorimetry (D65 white point, the right color primaries, the right transfer function).
Serena wrote on 5/22/2007, 10:23 PM
>>>typically never use more than 4 tracks at most<<<<

Guess you can do that for simple projects. Even in a simple project I have two tracks for generated media, cutaways, two pairs of video with live audio, SFX tracks, and at least one of background music. Compositing adds more, which I've had to do even in simple tasks. Vegas handles much more than this very easily.
michaelshive wrote on 5/23/2007, 4:13 AM
If you're used to the PPro titler than just use Photoshop to create your titles and bring the .PSD files into your Vegas timeline. I rarely use the Vegas titler - mainly rely on Photoshop.
michaelshive wrote on 5/23/2007, 4:15 AM
Why would you use track motion when you can use pan/crop to set keyframes? Track motion gets so confusing over a long form project. The only thing I use track motion for is to add a drop shadow (annoying - this should be an effect / filter) or if I need to zoom in on a pic while keep it stationary on the screen. That requires a combination of pan/crop & track motion.
Laurence wrote on 5/23/2007, 5:12 AM
Photoshop is great for static titles, but for titles that are animated by letter or word, it really isn't enough. Heroglyph does this kind of thing quickly and easily as a Vegas plugin.
farss wrote on 5/23/2007, 5:20 AM
Is it that horrible to manually convert the values in Photoshop?

Unless I've missed something here, then if I could do that in PS, I could just bring that same sample into Vegas and use the color picker in Vegas to do the same thing.
I've only got PS6, maybe the later version let me dial in Pantone colors but I thought as Pantone was copyrighted even that's not possible.
Either way though, as I've found even when you can match the RGB values it still doesn't look the same, a variety of reasons come into play, none of the Vegas's fault. Not only does something on a printed page look very different to something on a screen, our perception of color is affected by adjacent colors. For example a orange banner with red text on a yellow page. Reproduce the banner full screen, minus the yellow page, and it looks totally different to what it does on the printed page. Trying to get it so it looks the same is fun, eyeballing it is the only way I've found to work. Would be helpfull if the whole preview / secondary display screen updated as you moved the RGB values around in say the media generator.

Bob.
Laurence wrote on 5/23/2007, 5:33 AM
I tend to work with Photoshop a lot and for more reasons than just adjusting colors. If something was scanned from a computer printout, I use PS to get rid of the dot pattern that will cause all sorts of wriggly artifact problems when you animate the picture. I use it to get ride of dust and scratches that also tend to wiggle when they are animated. I give the picture a nice clean border. I can bring out details that are lost in the shadows, etc. You just can't do that sort of thing with Vegas alone.
GlennChan wrote on 5/23/2007, 11:08 AM
I've only got PS6, maybe the later version let me dial in Pantone colors but I thought as Pantone was copyrighted even that's not possible.
I remember being able to pick Pantone colors in Photoshop. It's probably copyrighted but I believe their business model is based off selling their inks.

Though color is affected by things like metamerism, so color matching is tricky to begin with (as it's affected by things like lighting / your lighting's spectral power distribution).