Vegas is an easier system to learn.
Vegas scripting and outside tools allow you to save great amounts of time.
Vegas has a faster workflow, things you can do in one step in Vegas take several steps in FCP. Like loops, like transitions, etc.
Vegas is cheaper. A kickass PC with Vegas will be cheaper than a Mac with FCP.
Vegas audio tools are far superior.
Integrates easily and similiar UI/workflows with Acid and Sound Forge.
Anecdotal evidence of Nightline switching to Vegas, vegas being demoed for FCP folks usually ends with their jaws dropping etc.

Vegas lets your preview all your fx and make changes while the timeline is playing. You can set up a loop and start adding fx and change keyframes, etc, and the whole time you can see your preview and the preview reflects your changes.



FCP's main advantage is when working with 35 mm film. With video it doesn't really have an advantage
FCP has better titling with LiveType.
Motion is nice

I heard a story that when FCP 5 came out Apple hired a consultant who knew both apps to do a study and compare both feature by feature. Vegas was on v5 at the time. The Apple folks thought they had caught up to Vegas and were shocked by how often Vegas was the better tool.

Here is Charlie White's rave review over at digitalvideoediting.com

Corporate stupid understands one thing,, bottom line. Prove to them Vegas can save them money and you will get vegas. If FCP saves them money , well then you will be that much more versatile .
What the heck, you learn a new system,, cant hurt.

With winrock's suggestion in mind, you may want to focus on speed with Vegas.

Since you know it, you will be up and running quicker than with FCP.
Since it's easy to learn (though Avid folks may not like the Single Preview Window) you will have other up and running faster.
Since the workflow is much faster than FCP, even a year from now you will be saving money with Vegas.

It works. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

Cheaper.

File interchange between Avid and Vegas can be done through AAF? Automatic Duck allows Avid <--> Vegas <--> FCP (I think you actually need automatic duck for AAF import/export from FCP).

Have them read Jan Ozer's "Battle of the Software NLEs": Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 and Part 4.

In it, he compares Premiere Pro 1.5, Final Cut Pro 5, Xpress Pro HD, Liquid Edition 6.1 and Vegas 6.0b.
Guess who the winner was :-)

Mike

This all helps me a great deal, my friends.
Thanks very much. I feel much better prepared in my battle.
And, as is pointed out above, if I'm yet over-ruled, learning FCP is not a tragedy. I still have Vegas for my freelance here at home.
Thanks again.

Do a "real-time" editing demo showing the pros and cons of FCP against Vegas - ie MAKE a video of the comparisons . .maybe then the penny will drop.

When I get invited to demo Vegas, sometimes all I need to do is a real-time LOOPED colour correction session. This normally has the Premmies and FCP-ers asking where this is sold! - One Premmie wag in the crowd was heard to murmur, "Huh, yer now showing-off mate!" . . to which I reply, "Sorry mate, but this is how I do it. Don't you?" . . oh yeah, when I do the clipboard comparison, they just freak.

If you've got the balls to do it, truly do think doing/making a real time video WHICH encaptures the pros and cons. Final decisions IS your though.

. oh yeah, what WAS that spoof we had 2 years back with the guy explaining how hard/easy pc/MAC stuff was? Now THAT would be a knock out too!

Me? I like the way I can create my own work-spaces:

"Audition Workspace" - allowing client or me to get at the media

"Primary Assembly Workspace" - allowing me to immediately get an overview of video

"Audio Hospital Workspace" - busses and linkages to Sound Forge!

"ArtyFarty Workspace" FXs and Plugins Front and Centre!

"Colour Correction Workspace" - Ah the place where "videoing" money is recouped and clips make their final stand . . or not!

"2nd Monitor Workspace" - nerdy one this, but makes me feel cool!

"2 Instance Workspace" This is where I can have 2 instances of Vegas up and can easily copy and paste between each.

Not forgetting the Multicam options in the 2 stalwarts in the scripting toolbax of Vegas - DO show 'emn one of my favourite Scripts "ImageToMarkers" script . .. koool!

As to the "bottom-line" and where will this save money, hard call. You will need to be very exact and give a deluge of verifiable data - accountants love this stuff and would be waiting in the ranks - quite correctly - to pick holes in any financial reason for yeah or nay.

So for me it is the real time workflow - CC and Fxs manipulation with 3-D tracks and the work-spaces - easy=cheaper project viewing work-flow that do impress. I know, I've heard the bottom mandible scrapping the floor behind me when I do this stuff at shows in London!

Grazie

I think setting up and recalling different workspaces is very cool for a first time user.

Hey mjroddy,
I got hired at my local cable station because of the style of my production. they bought a system for me to 'do my thang'. every other system is G5 mac. this is time warner i'm talking about. after seeing my turnaround and quality of work, we're getting more systems to handle vegas.

- vegas can be used as a design tool with video. complicated stuff in fcp. you need another ap to accomplish this like motion or after effects. this means more creativity and style in soley in vegas, faster workflow.

- audio control is far superior in vegas than fcp, after all, that's what it was made for in the first place.

- you don't have to know video editing terminology or linear editing tools to get deep into vegas. too many buttons do too many things in fcp, there's a steep learning curve. vegas is more relatable to computer geeks than old school editors. you can get started and create professional stuff in hours.

- support is phenominal... shoot, i haven't called sony yet, just been on the forums, and it's helped me plenty.

- i handle all our high school & d2 college sports promos. these buggaz have to be updated weekly, sometimes three times a week. templating is so much more easier in vegas. it's flexible as well where you can make each spot unique without spending HOURS of designing on another app. all in vegas baby.

- set up network rendering, chain a couple of computers with your vegas machine, and you have even faster renders.

- vegas can pretty much handle all types of formats than fcp. mp3, tiff, trga, wmv, mpg, etc. try opening some of these file types in fcp... HOOOOooo, talk about frustration. fcp5 might be a different thing tho.

that's just scratching the surface. there's deeper things that i don't have the need for (multicam setup, etc.) it's worth the investment.

there's a guy I work with who's a talented editor...does some really nice looking stuff with FCP and motion. He still comes to me when his audio is trashy...and is amazing how fast I can get things right in Vegas. Things he can't do...done in a few moments. The standard audio toolset is impressive...add on a few direct x plugins and you can do incredible work!

There's also the benefit of importing and exporting almost anything...all formats, without the TIME to convert coming onto the timeline.

Sean
------------------------------
broadcast voiceovers. CNN, Weather Channel, home answering machine...

Advantages of Vegas over FCP:

* Timeline is format- and timebase-agnostic; can switch project settings on the fly
* Handles 24p absolutely flawlessly
* Can export more formats
* Can mix 5.1 surround-sound (will become especially important as broadcasting switches over to digital)
* Much more sophisticated at VFX, especially chromakey
* Can set up a three-machine render farm on the same license; FCP requires separate licenses for each machine at $1000 a pop
* Completely customizable workspace

And everything everyone else said, and much more.

Advantages of FCP:

* Use by more pro houses
* Can be snooty about using a Mac

There can be a cost issue on the Mac platform that isn't always considered. The Mac platform is narrowly defined by apple and is occasionally redefined to the detriment of your NLE's hardware cards. For instance, we use Media100 in our shop and couldn't upgrade our systems to G5s because they wouldn't support the card configuration. I actually don't know why, maybe it was a lack of adequate buss power.

Your station execs need to seriously consider that Apple will change hardware platforms eventually. To me, this limits a current purchase of FCP to software-only installations. Either that or they should be prepared to throw out hardware cards as Apple migrates FCP to the intel platform. While it may be that the eventual Intel platforms will support the curreent crop of hardware for FCP just fine, I wouldn't bank on it.

Vegas runs on PCs and is not hardware dependent. This means that you'll always be able to run it on currently available systems. No hardware dead ends. Lack of hardware is both a blessing and a curse but consider that if you invest in really excellent systems you can use Vegas or move on to a number of excellent hardware dependent options, like a Premiere/Axio combination. In fact, Vegas will probably coexist quite happily on the same system as an Axio,so if they were to take the PC path they should probably consider systems capable of supporting things like Axio.

With a Mac platform you're currently pretty much limited to Avid and FCP. This is unlikely to change, even when Apple starts selling edit grade Intel systems in a year or two. You will always find perfectly good NLE choices on the PC side and I would say that sticking with the PC platform is going to be a much better financial choice for your station.

Rob Mack

Rob's point about cost issues on the Mac platform reminded me of a similar concern. A friend of mine who runs a local (Mac-based) post house has had to buy all his software (Photoshop, AE, etc.) all over again at least once (if not twice) in the past few years due to changes in the Mac OS. As I recall, it ran into several thousand dollars each time and he was not happy about it :-(

Mike

It really boils down to practical considerations, and fear. The fear for
them is that they won't buy "the standard" and probably the best cure
for that is to show them that there are many suites that are quite
suitable for the work they need to do. Don't just push Vegas, the first
goal is to establish that FCP isn't "The only NLE in the world". Once
you've done that then they'll consider a few options. I suspect that they may not be aware of the fact that there are other edit systems besides FCP and Avid.

Even so, maybe FCP really is the choice for them. It would be the right
choice if 1) they already have an installed base of Mac hardware and software
licenses for supporting software like photoshop, 2) They have a base of editors who are skilled with FCP, 3) there are other groups in the company that have already settled on FCP and you will be expected to leverage each others' media and timelines. 4) they have outside contractors who have agreed to provide FCP timelines.

On the other hand, a PC based NLE may be more appropriate for many of the same reasons:
1) the company has a support infrastructure that is geared for supporting PCs
2) the company has editors who are familiar with Windows and would prefer to edit on PCs if the NLE were suitable.
3) The company already owns licenses for PC versions of supporting software like Photoshop
4) the company wants to leverage video for use in Windows Media or in Powerpoint. It would be a little cumbersome to do this on a Mac.
5) the company has other units that have standardized on a particular PC based NLE

So far, I'm not trying to make a case for Vegas, just for going with the PC. The case for the PC is that there are a large number of manufacturers out there and you'll always be able to purchase systems that fit your particular needs. The are a fair number of capable NLEs for the PC and if at some point the company has to adopt a new one it is likely that they can use some or all of their existing hardware. Also, and you'll want to check this, it's possible that media file formats will be generic enough that disparate PC NLEs will be able to use the media.

As far as Vegas itself goes, it's easy and fast to work with, and it's cheap. It'll run on almost any system, and it'll coexist with another NLE on the same system, if need be. On the down side, it is slower to render, once it's time to render, and it currently has no hardware upgrade path. This lack of ability to scale up is usually the deal breaker for people who won't buy a software only system. Render times can sometimes be overcome - for instance, on a dual processor machine you can start a render and also start editing another project. That's very nice.

If they want a hardware based system I'm afraid to say they should be looking at the Axio with Premiere rather than FCP. Not only does it rock, it'll coexist with Vegas on the same machine. The only reason for a PC based shop to switch to FCP is if someone is holding a gun to their head.

Rob Mack

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/finalcut6.html

Just to give everyone a heads up... not that those new features will bring it up to vegas's level... but they're trying... its nto a feature issue so much as it is a useability issue.

Rob! Superb replies . .love 'em!

Exactly . .. what something WONT do . . didn't even think of that one. I guess having never operated FCP but have seen it being demo-ed, I thought it was very clunky in terms of the fixed workspace.

Yeah nobody wants to "back" something that "can't" do something OR being known to have invested in something that wont perform for a given set of circumstances. Very very interesting concept that I haven't ever . .I think . . done.

I'm changing my business plans accordingly .. oh yes! Printing off your replies as I write.

Best regards,

Grazie

We will presenting Vegas to a film production company here in Sweden. I hve seen trainging video showing all the moves, action etc right in the program. Now what program is being used there? I assume that kind of "video/screen" capture is then edited in Vegas?
Thanks, Garo

Camtasia is one.

The current state of the art is to capture and author in a flash-like environment. Camtasia started doing this a little late but that could be a good thing since they could get a good look at everyone else's tools.

Other tools include an application from a company nammed Qarbon, Macromedia's Captivate, A simpler program called ScreenFlash, etc.

What these do is intelligently capture screen activity and mouse movement. The mouse is usually on it's own layer and follows a path. The programs also can automatically generate instructional bubbles based on what you click on -- things like "Click on the 'File' menu" get added automatically. The bubbles are also on their on layers.

The different applications do things in slightly different ways so you should try them out to see what you like. We ended up going with Captivate because it can be imported into FLA files. In the end, however, our client's requirements for software simulators required none of the features that Captivate provided so we make all our sims by hand in Flash.

In the end, the nice thing about using swf files to present this sort of material is that you can add some interactivity if you want, and the final file size can be smaller. These programs usually generate something more like a slide show with a moving cursor. NLE's can be a bit of a problem for these because they may not capture the preview window properly, or they may try to capture the entire screen as a movie. The most efficient thing to do to show a preview window would be to actually load a movie into the flash file but this get's you into more complex authoring.

Rob Mack

Had to doublecheck my post to decide if you were being facetious (and I had to check a dictionary to spell "facetious" ;-) )

The convenience of being able to encode WMV or work with Powerpoint might be lost on this cable company but for corporate clients it's a pretty big deal. For that sort of application I'd always recommend Vegas because it's so flexible, and because an WMV encode doesn't need special hardware cards anyway.

At my shop we're looking at dumping Media100, which is Mac based, and moving to a PC based system. If we do it'll probably be Premiere Pro and Axio. We have a demo system here now and the performance is pretty darned astonishing. Too bad it uses Premiere. Premiere is still pretty clunky, as far as I can see but the Axio performance is so good that I'd probably put up with it. The advantages of using a PC as a platform over using a Mac are something I've seen first hand, or rather, heard first hand since the main editor is pretty vocal about how sick he is of Apple. And we do a lot of corporate work so I've seen how awkward it's been to make Windows Media files when the projects are on a Mac. We pipe them over SDI to an xw8000 running Windows Media Encoder. It'd be simpler if we could export them directly.

We've never had any reason whatsoever to interface ourselves with an FCP system, and this is in San Francisco, which has a pretty big FCP base. Once you deliver a final product it doesn't much matter what the edit system was.

If Vegas had the Axio performance it'd hands down be a winner. Even the guy who came to demo the Axio praised Vegas highly. Of course these Axio systems run on a dual Opteron platform (4 cores) and they make heavy use of the Nvidia graphics cards as well. The work isn't just being done by the Matrox hardware. So maybe if Vegas 7 makes better use of graphics card GPUs we'll see some performance gains.

If we go this way I'll have my system on the same media network as the Axios and we'll see if Vegas can play the media files. I suspect it can since Matrox says that plain software-only Ppro can play the media.

It has been a real pain these last five years to have some of our work done on the Mac and some of it done on PC. I can't stress enough how important it is to stick to just one platform.

Rob Mack

2 words: color correction tools. Bling in my videos always comes from knowing how to manipulate the footage so it stops looking like video. I have done (as DP) a number of production as of late that were cut on FCP and i always told the editor that when he's got a final cut i need to get uncompressed QT to do CC on my system. When ask why it can't be done on theirs i laugh.