Why don't you just take a direct audio out from the mixer that all the stage mics are plugged into? This is what I do all the time. Usually the TAPE OUT is not being used and I plug directly into it with my Marantz PMD660. I also do this when recording bands live. There is nothing like having direct audio from the mixing desk.

~jr

I'd certainly agree that getting the unit closer to the stage.
Set the 3D Pan all the way to the front centre.
I'm not familiar with the H2n but the "AGC" in the H4n isn't traditional AGC, it uses manual gain which it winds back if there's any signal that causes clipping. Given that you're trying to get a good recording of faint sounds and can use the recordings from the desk or camera mics for the loudest parts such a stratergy maybe working against you.
Given the choices of Auto Gain that you have "Meeting" might be your best bet as it's probably going to be quite agressive. If you want to try manual gain then dialing in a limiter might be wise.

All of that said simply making the recording louder will do nothing to help it sounding distant. You must get the mics closer to the sound source to avoid this. Different mics would help too but good shotguns e.g. Sanken CS3e or better are not cheap but they really do make a big difference with problems like this. You could also try plate / PZM mics on the front of the stage. There's some cheap ones around that I've had some joy from.

Bob.

Guys, thanks for the responses. I should have thought to post late Friday night so I could have a chance to see some responses before I left to tape Saturday's show.

JR - I can't use a board feed because some of the cast aren't mic'd. We're a relatively small school and have only six wireless mics, so enough for the lead roles/ singing roles, but not enough for every speaking role.

Tonight I set the Zoom on manual gain, dialed all the way up, and enabled the "General" limiter. This worked better, as loading the WAV file into Vegas shows a "fatter" waveform than last night's performance. I'll still have to play around in the coming weeks to see what gives me the best audio. I have a feeling that the Zoom audio will be best for dialogue parts, even if I have to boost it a bit. It might even be best for the singing parts as well.

Potter - I do have a Rode VideoMic (budget shotgun) which I generally use on a separate mic stand and plugged into the FX7 at the back of the auditorium. I had considered using it with the Zoom, but I was concerned that the pickup angle might be too narrow to pick up actors who could be at any point on the stage.

Bob - your comments and expertise are always welcomed. I used Mid-Side mode on the Zoom, recorded in RAW mode, which puts the "mid" input on the left channel of a stereo recording and the side input on the right. In Vegas I am using "left channel only" and not even using the side channel -- at least for now. Does M/S mode sound like the right way to go? Or should I use the H2n traditional stereo mode, with two mics XY at 90° (I think).

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/811053-REG/Zoom_ZH2N_H2n_Handy_Recorder_Portable.html

I guess in general I need to better understand what limiters and compressors are, and why you would choose one over the other. Surely the Zoom choices of limiters (general, concert, studio) invoke different strategies of some kind, and it would be nice to find a reference somewhere that describes the operation of each.

Anyway, the good news is that the people involved here -- families of the cast members -- would be thrilled with just about anything that is a step above handheld shakey-cam or cellphone video. I would like to get better audio,of course, but even the audio from my camcorder in the back of the auditorium would be fine for what we are doing here.

Thanks,
Tim

Tim

I don't have the budget for the type of mic that farss is recommending although it looks wonderful. I have two Sennheiser MKE300 which I have been very happy with. I find that they get very clean audio in this type of situation- they don't go low frequency but this is fine for voice.

The Sennheiser along with the Rode videomic (which I like less) all suffer from cell phone buzzing interference which will plague you in this kind of large audience situation. Phones on vibrate does not work - they have to off. A lot of people don't even seem to know how to turn their phone off!

I also have a AT897 which has the best quality audio - does not suffer from the cell phone problem - but doesn't seem to focus the sound the way the Sennheisers do.

For these types of situation I usually put a Sennheiser on each camera, the AT897 on one digital recorder and the Rode on another digital recorder and combine the whole lot in post. Maybe that's overdoing it but I can balance it to get really great sound.

I personally find having clean and focused audio to be far more important than picture quality.

Standard def over hi def - most people don't seem to care - echoey indistinct audio and people lose interest very quickly.

"Does M/S mode sound like the right way to go? Or should I use the H2n traditional stereo mode, with two mics XY at 90° (I think)."


Mid/Side Mode is quite flexible however assuming it is recording MS then you need to decode the matrix. Quite easily done using Vegas too.
Wiki here explains M/S. If from how M/S is recorded you cannot fathom the algebra to build a decoder using Vegas say the word and I'll let work it out :( Ultimately though I think recording X-Y is going to give you the same outcome in reality fro this application without having to decode in post.

Again though getting any microphone closer to the people speaking is going to be better than a host of uber expensive mics. The guys with the lapel radio mics are going to sound "close" and the one without "distant" no matter what you do. Really good shotguns have very good side and rear rejection and certain can seemingly do the impossible but not miracles. Worse if they're not carefully aimed at the sound source it does sound "off mic".

The only one mic that might really help and can be had cheap as I said before is the PZM / plate mics. I use them a bit as I have several cheap ones and they come with most theatres as a matter of course. Again though if the performers are way back on the stage and cannot project their voice probably no use at all.

Bob.

> "JR - I can't use a board feed because some of the cast aren't mic'd. We're a relatively small school and have only six wireless mics, so enough for the lead roles/ singing roles, but not enough for every speaking role."

That doesn't matter. Do you think a mic placed 30 feet out in the audience is going to pick up the voice of an un-mic'd cast member when 6 other mics are 3 feet away from this person right on stage? As long as at least one other person with a mic is onstage you should still get clean audio that can be made louder in post.

I do this all the time. No school mics every cast member. Get the feed from the board. It will be way better than any mic in the audience. You can easily make the un-mic'd cast members louder in post with some normalizing, compression, and a volume envelope.

~jr