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LarsHD
wrote on 2/8/2010, 2:16 PM
Comments
PerroneFord
wrote on 2/8/2010, 2:22 PM
Avid is transcoding the file to DNxHD. In an MXF container. Vegas is doing nothing. If you did this in Final Cut Pro, the file would get transcoded to ProRes. If you did it in Final Cut express it would get converted to AIC.
LarsHD
wrote on 2/8/2010, 3:38 PM
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ddm
wrote on 2/8/2010, 4:42 PM
No, Avid only uses it's newly created files, which isn't a problem usually, because the quality is very high, same thing with final cut, pro res is high quality. That's the basic thing that many vegas users don't realize, final cut and avid insist that you convert your files before using them and therefore plays back optimally. Vegas is more free form, doesn't make you do anything and tries to play back everything you throw at it.If you were to develop a workflow in vegas, like using neoscene to create new files from your camera's originals you would find the preview to be quite a bit better. Some might want Sony to force this kind of workflow on everyone but I, for one, am glad that it gives us all the choice on how to deal with all of the various file formats out there.
PerroneFord
wrote on 2/8/2010, 5:36 PM
Let's clean up some potential misinformation here.
1. Avid does not transcode everything. It transcodes some things. I can happily put XDCam, DVCProHD, Cineform, and several other codecs on the timeline in Avid, and it will play back just fine. Final Cut Pro is the same. It has a number of codecs that it understands natively.
2. Avid and Final Cut Pro, have a single codec that they accelerate. The program is optimized for that codec and timeline performance with them is stellar.
3. I don't think people are advocating that Vegas only go to a single codec. I think people are advocating that Vegas have one accelerated, high quality codec, that offers multiple layers of real-time performance. Unfortunately, without leveraging the GPU, Vegas is just not going to get there I don't believe.
Right now, Cineform offer the best option for Vegas users in terms of a high quality codec that Vegas can play back easily. The built in Sony MXF codecs are also good, but more lossy. Probably just fine for going to the web or for going to DVD from HD material.
1. Avid does not transcode everything. It transcodes some things. I can happily put XDCam, DVCProHD, Cineform, and several other codecs on the timeline in Avid, and it will play back just fine. Final Cut Pro is the same. It has a number of codecs that it understands natively.
2. Avid and Final Cut Pro, have a single codec that they accelerate. The program is optimized for that codec and timeline performance with them is stellar.
3. I don't think people are advocating that Vegas only go to a single codec. I think people are advocating that Vegas have one accelerated, high quality codec, that offers multiple layers of real-time performance. Unfortunately, without leveraging the GPU, Vegas is just not going to get there I don't believe.
Right now, Cineform offer the best option for Vegas users in terms of a high quality codec that Vegas can play back easily. The built in Sony MXF codecs are also good, but more lossy. Probably just fine for going to the web or for going to DVD from HD material.
ddm
wrote on 2/8/2010, 8:54 PM
Wait a second, if you import a video file into your avid, doesn't it still create a new file, an mxf or omf, and place it in a separate location? I haven't used MC4 yet but everything I've used before has done that. Not that it forces you to use DNXhd, it can use the several other variants that it supports, but it does create it's own copy, sometimes taking a long, long time to import even some very basic formats, like DV avi's for example.
Final Cut is more freeform in that it does support more file formats, although very unsatisfactorily, in my opinion. Avid, if it supports a file format, it really supports it and it works flawlessly, Final Cut, for me is a complete crap shoot unless you use one of the handful that it supports well.
DNXhd and Apple ProRes are excellent formats and I wish there was a free equivalent for Vegas, like Cineform, although cineform is not all that expensive.
My larger point to Lars was that accepting a workflow for something like the Canon D5 MkII, with cineform to get good preview is exactly what Avid and FCP do for that same format to get good results. Right?
Final Cut is more freeform in that it does support more file formats, although very unsatisfactorily, in my opinion. Avid, if it supports a file format, it really supports it and it works flawlessly, Final Cut, for me is a complete crap shoot unless you use one of the handful that it supports well.
DNXhd and Apple ProRes are excellent formats and I wish there was a free equivalent for Vegas, like Cineform, although cineform is not all that expensive.
My larger point to Lars was that accepting a workflow for something like the Canon D5 MkII, with cineform to get good preview is exactly what Avid and FCP do for that same format to get good results. Right?
PerroneFord
wrote on 2/8/2010, 9:35 PM
Avid has three modes in which it brings video into the NLE.
1. Normal import. This can take a while, because it really is doing a full transcode on the video and creating a new file in it's relational database.
2. Fast import. This is pretty quick as it is merely doing a re-wrap to MXF to put the file in it's database.
3. AMA (Avid Media Access). This is literally instant. For P2, XDCamHD, XDCamEX, and one other format, you have instant access to your files to cut. And when I say instant, I mounted my 16GB SxS card in 4 seconds... with all metadata intact. You then have the option to re-wrap this later and place it in the Avid database.
As for the larger whole, yes, you are right. However, my workflow with Avid for 5DMk2 files was:
1. Copy files to Hard drive from card
2. Use batch mode of Mpeg Streamclip to convert all files to DNxHD
3. Fast Import DNxHD files into Avid.
Vegas' way is faster if you are going to be done with your edit in an hour or two. The poor preview and timeline performance don't have a chance to weigh you down. But as ingest speed becomes a smaller fraction of total time on a project, like if you are doing a project that will take several days or weeks, the ingest becomes a minor annoyance you tolerate to have absolutely real time performance for the entire rest of the project.
For our movie, I let Avid ingest the 100+ GB of source files overnight. The next day, I had real time performance on 8 days worth of 1080p material. Multiple layers, color correction, effects... it all played in real time. Using the spacebar to stop and start was nearly frame accurate. A timeline scrub showed what appeared to be every frame.. no lag.
I would happily pay for that kind of performance in Vegas. It's a lot easier to use for short projects. I've even tried to adopt the MXF workflow suggested by SCS. It's better, but not perfect by any means. Cineform is good too... but not as good as what I saw in MC.
1. Normal import. This can take a while, because it really is doing a full transcode on the video and creating a new file in it's relational database.
2. Fast import. This is pretty quick as it is merely doing a re-wrap to MXF to put the file in it's database.
3. AMA (Avid Media Access). This is literally instant. For P2, XDCamHD, XDCamEX, and one other format, you have instant access to your files to cut. And when I say instant, I mounted my 16GB SxS card in 4 seconds... with all metadata intact. You then have the option to re-wrap this later and place it in the Avid database.
As for the larger whole, yes, you are right. However, my workflow with Avid for 5DMk2 files was:
1. Copy files to Hard drive from card
2. Use batch mode of Mpeg Streamclip to convert all files to DNxHD
3. Fast Import DNxHD files into Avid.
Vegas' way is faster if you are going to be done with your edit in an hour or two. The poor preview and timeline performance don't have a chance to weigh you down. But as ingest speed becomes a smaller fraction of total time on a project, like if you are doing a project that will take several days or weeks, the ingest becomes a minor annoyance you tolerate to have absolutely real time performance for the entire rest of the project.
For our movie, I let Avid ingest the 100+ GB of source files overnight. The next day, I had real time performance on 8 days worth of 1080p material. Multiple layers, color correction, effects... it all played in real time. Using the spacebar to stop and start was nearly frame accurate. A timeline scrub showed what appeared to be every frame.. no lag.
I would happily pay for that kind of performance in Vegas. It's a lot easier to use for short projects. I've even tried to adopt the MXF workflow suggested by SCS. It's better, but not perfect by any means. Cineform is good too... but not as good as what I saw in MC.