It seems as though you are referring to 24p pulldown removal for HDV. SCS has not made it clear as to whether or not 8.0c will b able to interpret this type of footage correctly for use on the timeline without conversion. Perhaps we should all request it? I know Adobe After Effects can guess the 24p cadence of HV20 footage when you ask it to interpret it as 24p.

2- What kind of "24p pulldown" support are you looking for? Can you be more specific?

He's looking for automatic pulldown from sources like the Canon HV20/30 and some of the Sony HDV camcorders. These record 24p (F) and pack it into a 60i stream. Vegas doesn't do the 60i to 24p conversion and the footage looks funky.

Currently After Effects does this correctly as does Cineform NEO HDV. There are also some free tools out there that does this. It would be nice if Vegas supported it, particularly considering this also applies to a couple of Sony camcorders.

Check Eugenias site http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/07/13/canon-hv20-24p-pulldown

Hmm. Vegas will let you remove pulldown from DV AVI files but not for other formats it seems. I just assumed that Vegas would be capable of removing pulldown (manually) from other file formats.

Wow, the workarounds look a little tedious.

It is not Vegas's fault.

Vegas is quite capable of removing pull down....as long as it is properly flagged as such on the source. The HV20 does not set a flag the way other cams do so Vegas doesn't know the pull down is there.

I should have been been more specific guys and gals.
I have an HV20



Vegasmon

Your exactly correct... It would be nice to stay in the Vegas Work flow when when working with my HDV HV20.
I have checked out Eugenia site and have done and preformed some of free methods successfully.
But its a pain in the rump... Hopefully SCS will address this when using the HV20.



-vegasmon

I agree, with the popularity of the HV20/30 camera, it would be nice to stay within the Vegas workflow to get the 24p into vegas from these cameras without the tedious workaround. And it looks this would also benefit Sony cameras.

I have the HV20, and I would much rather see Canon properly flag the pull down as opposed to screwing around with Vegas trying to adapt to unorthodox ways and measures. The problem is that it's a consumer camera (which is why the pull down is there) and Canon does not appear to be too interested in fixing it so that the pull down can easily be removed. (This from an email sent to Canon by an AVS forum member asking why the pull down is not flagged)

Perhaps a halfway feature would be for Vegas to be able to remove pulldown from all types of media, not just DV AVI. If we can do it for DV AVI, why can't we do it for other formats?
Automatic guessing of the pulldown cadence isn't 100% necessary, although it would be a time saver. From my experience with AE, cadence detection will sometimes screw up... so I'm curious as to how Cineform is doing it (presumably they are using some foolproof method?).

There are some situations where being able to remove pulldown would be helpful... e.g. material over SD-SDI.

I would much rather see Canon properly flag the pull down as opposed to screwing around with Vegas trying to adapt to unorthodox ways and measures
It seems like that ship has sailed? :(

have the HV20, and I would much rather see Canon properly flag the pull down as opposed to screwing around with Vegas

Agree with blink here, but also want to point out that Canon is not the only one not flagging the pulldown, it seems none of the consumer camcorder manufacturers (Sony included) do this for their HDV stuff. I don't know why. Part of the reason is possibly that they assume most people are mainly interested in showing this on their TVs, and there is no reason to do the pulldown conversion for a TV since the TV will do it for you. Given that the world is networked, I think this is a bad attitude.

Not much of a chance that they will fix it, so it would be good if SCS could add polldown detection to Vegas the same way Adobe has done it for After Effects. Since Vegas can do it it is just a matter of detection, and there is nothing unorthodox or orthodox about it.

there is no reason to do the pulldown conversion for a TV since the TV will do it for you

Traditional TVs don't do 'pulldown conversion' - they just display video at 60 fields-per-second (30fps). Telecine 'pulldown' is an old kludge (the best that could be done with the technology of the 1950s) to enable 24fps film to run at the correct speed on a 60Hz (30fps) video system. The name is derived from the way the film was moved through the telecine machine to create the '4 film frames to 5 video frames' pattern.

Why we are perpetuating this juddery 24fps stuff in the 21st century I can't understand......

Tony

Hi,
First time posting here. I apologize for jumping in here with a question sort off the subject but I've been trying all the forums to find a concise, easy to understand answer and hope that you guys can help. I have Vegas 8 Prob (love it). I shoot with a Canon XH A1 and capture from a Canon HV30. I shoot in 24f. My computer is a Intel Q6600 Quad Core Processor Overclocked to 3.0G. When I capture footage shot in 24f through Vegas (from either my XH A1 or HV30) I get only stills. If I shoot in 30f or 60i all is fine. I'm currently using Cineform Neo as a workaround. Can anyone explain to me why I have this problem capturing in 20f
Many thanks in advance,
Sprague

Sprague, you'll get a better answer if you start your own thread. (It also helps keep discussions much easier to track!)

Why we are perpetuating this juddery 24fps stuff in the 21st century I can't understand......
Some of the advantages of 24p is that:
A- It's progressive, which makes visual effects work easier.
B- It converts easily into 29.97fps and 25fps for distribution in both PAL and NTSC countries.
C- If you're shooting on film (the preferred medium for most high-end productions) then it saves some money.

2- Next generation HDTV will likely be 50 and 60 progressive frames per second. (But not for over-the-air broadcasting).

(Thanks Glen)
Sprague

"Why we are perpetuating this juddery 24fps stuff in the 21st century I can't understand......"

To a certain extent, I quite agree. Of course if you're George Lucas and have access to insanely expensive cameras, the 24p experience can be rather incredible.
But the BIG mistake here is that people seem to think that they're going to get some kind of comparable 24p out of a $700 consumer camcoder (the HV20). I have the HV20 and its 24p is not even remotely close.... and "juddery" is a rather conservative term to say the least.

I've spent about as much time on converting 24p to 60i as anyone. This is part of the film transfer stuff I've posted about in the past. The one thing I have learned for sure is that progressive is not "better" than interlaced; it is simply different. The one thing, however, where progressive -- especially 24p -- has an edge is encoding to MPEG-2. You can go to incredibly low bitrates with 24p and still get great looking results. Take the same length footage shot in 60i, and encode using the same bitrate, and the results will be disappointing. I am not enough of a mathematician to figure out exactly whey this is. It is actually extremely complicated because 60i has 2.5x the number of events per second, but each event is a field instead of a frame, so it has half the number of pixels, and the spatial difference between each event is 40% of what you get with 60i. So, you win some and you lose some, and every time I think about this, I conclude that the encoding should be the same for 24p and 60i when done at the same bitrate and the same frame resolution. But it isn't.

Other than that, however, like I said, 24p is not better than 60i; it is just different.