I own cineform and use it often on the front end of a project, but have never rendered out to cineform. Are you saying that if I set my project up as 32-bit, use cineform on ingest, and I render out my final output using the cineform codec, that the result will be a 10-bit 4:2:2 file?

No. (Right now, I believe you can only send 8-bit to Cineform.)

I'm just saying it's more practical.

You could use the BMD QT codec I think, it's free from BMD and it should open just fine in Macs and PCs. Somewhat large files though.

Bob.

Glenn is right, I improperly thought Vegas supported external codecs at >8bpc. It doesn't, and until Cineform updates Neo, it's 8 bit only for external stuff. I thought that Vegas could output 10bit 4:2:2 to mpeg2 for DVD burning or other stuff. But now I'm not sure.
In the specs documentation, they avoid the subject concering 8 or 10bit.
Kind of kills Vegas for my post work flow plans, unless Cineform comes through soon.

I've never heard of a 10bit mpeg file. Are you sure such a thing is possible?

Vegas does render to 10bit external formats if you've got them. I've exported 32-bit/chanel uncompressed AVI and also 10-bit RGB BMD AVIs. I've not used either of these in any practical way, just wanted to see what would happen. The BMD AVIs look seriously wrong on the Vegas timeline but vine in WMP.

Bob, I didn't see BMD QT codecs on their site. Maybe I should look harder.

Avid has a free codec pack that includes some 10-bit capability. Can't remember the URL but I see it on my system. I haven't used it.

Rob

"Bob, I didn't see BMD QT codecs on their site."
I think you have to download and install their driver package and it goes along for the ride.

Bob.

I've been editing video for years, and now realize how much I don't understand about the differences between codecs. I know that DVCPro HD is 10-bit 4:2:2, and I know what that means, but Vegas doesn't render to DVCPro HD. Of the codecs that it does render to, I don't know what their technical specifications are in terms of final bit depth and color info. Say you got a RED camera and shot in 2K, converted to Quicktime and pulled it into Vegas, and wanted your final output to go to film. What do your render to before you take it to a film-out company? Is there a good website or book that describes all of the various codecs and what your output will be if you start with a high-bit source?

Well the industry standard for going directly to a filmout is a dpx sequence. Basically that's one tiff file per frame. At 2K, factor in 13MB per frame and for a feature break it up into reels.

It'd be a brave or foolish man though who does this without doing one heck of a lot of homework and testing. Realistically you'd be much better advised to do an offline edit with proxies, export an EDL and then take your original source and EDL to a post house that specialises in this, along with a platinum Amex card.

There are a large number of traps in this process and anyone of them can cost you a lot of money if you get it wrong. Grading for a filmout is not a trivial process, first you do the basic grading, make it look how you want it. Then you do another pass to match it to the selected print stock. Now you want to release it on DVD or for TV as well, so you do another pass to grade for that format. And while doing this you need monitors that'll let you see what you're doing and the skills to understand just what your seeing. In all honesty unless you want to spend a lot of time and money doing tests hand it over to the experts and get back to making your next movie.

We're a couple of months away from going through this process with another 2K camera, I think I've got a decent enough understanding of what's involved to have a go at doing most of this in house but its going to take a lot more learning and testing.

And by the way I think DVCPro HD is 8 bit.

Bob.

I've never heard of a 10bit mpeg file. Are you sure such a thing is possible?
There might be some high/advanced profile of MPEG that does 10-bit. (And this depends on whether you're talking about MPEG2, MPEG4, etc.) Though I don't think Vegas will export it.

2- DVCPRO HD should be 8-bit. It's 4:2:2-ness is kind of misleading, since that is after subsampling. (I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head.)

3- Grading for filmout is probably best left to post houses which specialize in it and have the workflow and color management down.

My main goal is a cross application codec that can maintain 10bit 4:4:4 for chroma key and other vfx work. trying to avoid uncompressed if possible..Right now the only ones that don't require I purchase a high end SAN and workstation are Cineform and Sheer. Cineforms' highest quality settings at 1080p max out at around 100MBs, which is well within the range of SATA Raid setups.

Still, 10bit 4:2:2 isn't bad.

Yes, I meant MPEG2.

I'm pretty sure DVCProHD is 8-bit, not 10.

I suspect that all final delivery formats are 8-bit. I'm not sure what out there is 10bit, except maybe HDCam?

I'll let you guys debate the merits of 10bit media, it seems to me to be more important during processing than as a final format.

Rob

Everybody is saying that cineform is 8-bit, so forget that.

You don't really need a SAN to get that throughput, I think you can get it on single systems with SCSI (or similar) and an array with enough members in the set. The SAN would be a server box with that array attached that then serves out all the media to clients.

Rob Mack

I suspect that all final delivery formats are 8-bit. I'm not sure what out there is 10bit, except maybe HDCam?
HDCAM should be 8-bit. HDCAM SR should be 10-bit. (As with Panasonic's D-5 HD).

I've never heard of a 10bit mpeg file. Are you sure such a thing is possible?

There is a 10-bit MPEG-4 format (H.264 High Profile).

D-5 both in SD and HD are 10-bit formats (D-1 is the 8-bit equivalent).

Panasonic created it 10-15 years ago, with a $150,000 tape deck the size of a large office refrigerator and no error correction (they were out of bits, couldn'a do it!).

Today, DCI (the Digital Cinema Initiative) uses 10-bit 2K (2048 x 1080) JPEG2000 as its primary delivery format, but the deliverable is usually created by conversion from a 10-bit D-5 HD source.

HDCAM-SR supports both lin and log 10-bit formats in 4:4:4 or 4:2:2.

Sorry guys, I was just throwing a "what if" scenario out with a RED cam. I have no intention of doing a film-out for a long time. I guess my question is, is there a resource on the web or a good book that defines all of the codecs and their merits and shortcomings. Sometimes I don't have the room for uncompressed video, but I need to render out a small section of video to be added to a timeline later. I don't have room for uncompressed, but don't want the video quality to suffer. So I am looking for a really good temp render codec that will not suffer terribly under re-compression, but the file sizes aren't off the charts. So good resources is what I am looking for if you know of any.

Coursedesign brings up an important issue,"lin and log 10-bit formats in 4:4:4 or 4:2:2". One needs to understand "LINEAR and LOG" ranges and the do's and don'ts about mixing these video feeds/files(colorspaces), especially if your goal is to output the final edit to the "Big Screen".

HDCAM and D5 are 10 bit formats at delivery. Open-EXR is a 10 bit (and beyond) delivery format, and probably eventually an aquisition format. DPX is a final delivery format and can be 10bit.

The most useful site I'd seen on the topic was this one: http://www.onerivermedia.com/codecs/

It's a little old, and it's geared to Quicktime and FCP, but I think the method of testing codecs is quite good. It' seems like a good site to judge other codec comparison sites by.

Rob Mack