60i to 24p in Vegas 6 is incredible!

Paul_Holmes wrote on 4/23/2005, 6:42 PM
This post has been coming up to the top for a while so I'm reediting to say my convoluted method below is now outdated with V6. Just put your 29.97 footage on a 24p timeline (set in properties), edit away, and compile. New tutorial by Douglas Spotted Eagle on VASST site about this (www.vasst.com). The new way gives you much smoother 24p.

Over the past few years I've been playing with DVFilmaker and using Vegas 4 60i to 24p to create a more filmic cadence. I just did some renders in Vegas 6 and I'm overwhelmed at what an improvement this is. Truly looks as though it were shot on a Panny AGX-100. (I'm talking about the cadence -- film looks can be added as you desire). I was never totally satisfied with the 60i to 24p in Vegas 4 but this is, as they say, "The Bomb." The programmers at Sony have done an incredible job!

Following the help file doesn't quite give you enough information to get the best look. I relied partly on SPOTS tutorial on VASST and followed the advice from the help file to render with 2332 pulldown.


Bring 60i footage into the timeline. Template should be 29.97 and whatever aspect ratio you shot in. In Project properties make sure Deinterlace method is set to none.

Click on the first clip, then right-click on the last to select all. Right-click for context menu on one of the clips and choose Switches and and make sure "Disable Resample" is selected.

Then render with the appropriate 24p (23.976) template depending on whether you shot 4X3 or widescreen and use 2332 pulldown.

When rendered pull the file into a 24p project and edit from there.

I've been playing with this for a couple hours, previewing through my external monitor and the output definitely has a smooth 24p film cadence that truly looks like it was shot with a 24p camera. I've tested footage that was pretty rock-steady and footage that was handheld with quick pans and it all looks great. There's something about the cadence that doesn't call attention to itself except that if asked, was this shot on film or digital, you'd probably say immediately, "Well, obviously on film!"


Spot|DSE wrote on 4/23/2005, 6:48 PM
It is indeed, pretty impressive, eh?! This is what was one of the inspirations for the Gearshift tool we've built, because HDV 60i to 24p will just bowl you over. Sony appears to have given this a lot of attention. Glad to see others are finding this useful too.
Paul_Holmes wrote on 4/23/2005, 7:04 PM
I should mention, Douglas, that I tried Reel Celluloid and was very impressed. The film looks by David Jimerson are pretty amazing. Although the Magic Bullet plugins may do a little more exensive job, the render time for your plugins are probably 10% of Magic Bullets and do just about the same job. I just spent the wad for the moment on the upgrade to 6 and DVDA but I'll be purchasing Reel within the next couple weeks.
mdopp wrote on 4/23/2005, 11:27 PM
Hey - and what about us in the rest of the (50i)-World ;-) ?
Hopefully the next release comes up with a decent tool for 50i to 25p as well.
Marco. wrote on 4/24/2005, 2:54 PM
50i to 24p is same workflow.
50i to 25p is available since quite a while in Vegas and bit more easy (regarding the backgrounds) compared to 60i to 24p conversions. Just use the regular PAL DV project properties template and render to PAL DV progressive then.

David Jimerson wrote on 4/24/2005, 5:43 PM
I thank you for the kind words, Paul! I hope you enjoy them.

The render time IS killer.
mdopp wrote on 4/25/2005, 10:46 AM
Sure 50i to 25p is trivial in Vegas 4/5/6. However the two built in deinterlacers are of low quality. But we had this discussion several times already so I'm not going to start it all over...
Marco. wrote on 4/25/2005, 10:55 AM
Well, but 60i to 24p conversion - there is no technical difference. It's also a deinterlacing but combined with resampling which is not necessary on the 50i->25p process.

Xander wrote on 4/25/2005, 11:46 AM
This may be a stupid question. You only get the option for 2332 pulldown when you render as DV. What is the workflow for HDV and doing 60i to 24p?
GregFlowers wrote on 4/25/2005, 2:12 PM
I've been wandering the same thing. In Vegas 5, when I convert HDV 1080/60i to 1080/24p it doesn't look right. It strobes a lot, similar to CF24 setting. It doesn't seem to give the film cadence like when going from DV 60i to DV 24p. Is there anyway in Vegas 6 to make HDV 1080/60i look like 1080/24p? That way we get the film cadence and keep most of our resolution.
Spot|DSE wrote on 4/25/2005, 2:32 PM
How are you converting? What's your workflow?
Gonzoman wrote on 4/25/2005, 2:50 PM
I'm assuming that this procedure would work in V5? I want to wait until Sony get's the bugs worked out of V6 before I jump in so I'll be working with V5 for now
slacy wrote on 4/25/2005, 3:51 PM
What is the workflow if you want to convert the cadence of 60i footage to 24P but then desire to print back to 60i? Is that doable? And advisable?

My client distributes his product on VHS, but he loves the film look and I'd love to deliver something more film-like for him.
Paul_Holmes wrote on 4/25/2005, 4:21 PM
The answer's probably in the V6 help file under "How Do I", "Working with 24p Progressive Scan," then "Render a 24p project as a DV AVI file."

With a quick reading it looks like you simply render it as 24p inserting 2332 pulldown and the avi should be PTT able to tape.

Although I've been editing a 24p movie I haven't finished it and may not save it back to tape, just to several DVDs as a split AVI file. But it would be interesting to do a test.
GregFlowers wrote on 4/25/2005, 5:25 PM
I only fooled around with converting 1080/60i hdv to 1080/24p once or twice but my work flow was something like this:
Set properties to 1080/60i hdv Cineform preset. Place footage in timeline. Render as mpeg 2, 1080/24p with 2-3 pulldown applied. This seemed to produce much strobing when compared to rendering as dv 24p with 3-2 or 2-3-3-2 pulldown. I may have not had a setting correct though. If you do render Cineform 1080/60i hdv as 1080/24p mpeg2 with 2-3 pulldown, shouldn't this produce a look similar to 24p dv? I need to spend more time fooling with this but I don't have a great functional need to do it right now. It would be nice to know if the film-look techniques for dv work when keeping everything in the hdv realm.
Spot|DSE wrote on 4/25/2005, 6:20 PM
Greg, try your renders to the 2:3:3:2 pulldown, and you should be pleased with how that works out. I've been playing with this a lot lately, and the footage looks great.
orca wrote on 4/26/2005, 12:32 PM
Hi Spot,

How do you use 2:3:3:2 pulldown if I render to mpeg2? I'm using the DVDA 24p and it only has 23.97 + 2:3 pulldown.


busterkeaton wrote on 4/26/2005, 12:49 PM
You're doing two conversion here. 60i to 24p and avi to mpeg2.

I would do each conversion as a separate step.
Xander wrote on 4/26/2005, 1:04 PM
Sounds like this only works for DV and not HDV unless you convert to DV
Hall E Woode wrote on 4/26/2005, 2:33 PM
So does it look better than DVFilm Maker's 24p results? Because those were spot on. If it looks as good or better, then I'll be very happy when I finally get this upgrade. No more mid-steps to get 24p!
SonyEPM wrote on 4/26/2005, 2:47 PM
Make sure to use "Best" quality video rendering when doing 24p conversions (good = the default). If you do these conversions frequently saving a template is a good idea...that template will show up in the batch converter option list once saved.
busterkeaton wrote on 4/26/2005, 3:07 PM
Well most likely you are converting HDV to the Cineform codec avi and converting the avi to mpeg2.

At least, that is my understanding of it. The Cineform codec is giving you HDV quality, so you are not losing anything. Do the HDV gurus agree with this?

orca wrote on 4/26/2005, 3:15 PM
It's a two-step process still? But I'm still not clear on the final step to render to mpeg2.

1. Set project to 24p. Import footage to timeline, put titles, etc. Render to DV 24p (2-3-3-2).avi
3. Bring the .avi file to a new 24p Project. Render to "DVD Architect 24p NTSC video stream" default.

Will this work? One I'm not clear is the final step where the frame in Video tab in the DVDA template is 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown. Is this ok, or should this be set to 24.000?

Thanks for all the advices.

orca wrote on 4/26/2005, 6:19 PM
I'm trying to follow Spot's new tutorial on this one. But I'm having problem figuring out or at least I need confirmation that the output requires a two-step process. Rendering out to 24p-DV first, then reload to a new 24-p project and render using DVDA 24p template? Is this correct?

Or can I skip the DV process and just render straight to DVDA 24p? I can't find clear answer on this that I'm experimenting using the two methods, but I just wish someone could explain to me and save me some time from experimenting on what others already know.



In case it's not immediately obvious, to print this to tape requires a camera or deck capable of receiving a 24P stream. You'll want to render by going to File>Render As> and choosing the NTSC-DV 24p (inserting 2:3:3:2 pulldown) Be sure to use BEST mode when rendering! (default is "good")
This technique is most valuable for printing to DVD, and competing with some of the bigger fish in the market when it comes to film look. I showed a video that was created with these techniques at a small film festival in Milwaukee, WI September 2003. A reasonably well-known director asked me what kind of film I'd shot it on. He was shocked when I told him it was shot on a pair of DV cameras. The video won first place in the children's category. It was shown from DVD. Render the project out using the Vegas 24P NTSC or PAL template, you can render as a DVD Architect NTSC/PAL video stream if you intend on rendering an AC3 file for the audio, or render as a 24P NTSC/PAL file where the audio will be packaged with the video stream.
Spot|DSE wrote on 4/26/2005, 6:24 PM
You can render straight to 1080/24p MPEG. There is a template already in there for you to use.
Start with a 1080/24p template.
Drop your HD on the timeline
Render as 1080/24p MPEG