720/60p downconvert to SD

Back to post

Comments

Bob Chandler wrote on 7/9/2010, 5:12 PM
musicvid

I've got a folder in media fire now, but unsure how to get this to you. Can you take me through the steps, or what info I need to share with you for you to see the 3 .mts files in this folder?

Sorry it's taken me so long, I got side tracked with other stuff. Whenever you can respond would be great.

Thx

Bob
musicvid10 wrote on 7/9/2010, 5:16 PM
Post the link or email it to my username at gmail.
Bob Chandler wrote on 7/9/2010, 5:16 PM
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/dd1766f9ea11ef95b94117dade8fc295e9e695cea2e03c2fd8c7c6998cb4ca21?utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=website

musicvid- hope this is a link that will get you to that folder.
musicvid10 wrote on 7/9/2010, 5:55 PM
I hope others will see why I chose to ask for and wait for a sample upload before offering explanations. I had my theories too, but something just didn't seem "right."

Please feel encouraged to download Bob's files, put one in a Vegas project set for 60p, or in a player that supports frame-by-frame advance, step through them one frame at a time, and help Bob determine whether the problem lies with his camera, media, or his method of getting it from his camera to computer.

Assuming these are the pristine, original files from his camera (which took some real convincing to get), I feel compelled now to turn this over to those of you who have more experience with these matters and this format than I do. If they aren't, then there are certainly some more questions that need to be asked . . .

Bob, I've got a big project starting this weekend. You are in capable hands.

;?)
fldave wrote on 7/9/2010, 6:56 PM
Odd. Granted, I don't work with 60P until recently. And I am on Vegas 8 still.

With Bob's original project settings, I couldn't go frame by frame along the timeline with the left or right arrow keys. I switched to a 29.97 project, then the arrows worked again.

At 29.97, frame #2 of the file 00129.mts was pretty mangled. I right-clicked the event on the timeline, and clicked "Disable Resample". That cleared up frame #2 nicely.

So could the file really be 29.97 or does Vegas 8 not handle 60P very well? I have had other 720/60P files from my Zi8 work fine at 60P.

Mangled file?
musicvid10 wrote on 7/9/2010, 7:30 PM
With Bob's original project settings, I couldn't go frame by frame along the timeline with the left or right arrow keys. I switched to a 29.97 project, then the arrows worked again.

Match Project properties to Media as in the very first post, Save the Project, and open it again.
Frame advance will now work as expected. Eagerly awaiting your analysis.
TeetimeNC wrote on 7/9/2010, 8:11 PM
I loaded Bob's footage into Vegas 9.0d and matched properties. I had to press the arrow key twice to advance one frame, then twice to advance next frame.

Then I loaded the footage into Vegas 9.0e and it worked properly. I also loaded one of my 720p60 clips into the same project and they all worked the same.

I won't be able to spend any time with this until Sunday, but the only thing I see at this point is the two clips I downloaded look a bit out of focus.

/jerry
musicvid10 wrote on 7/9/2010, 8:36 PM
Actually, WMP plays it correctly, but Vegas 8.0c sees it the same as VLC. Hundreds of duplicated and field-reversed frames, consistently. Using Vista 32 here. Very odd indeed.
fldave wrote on 7/9/2010, 8:42 PM
I'm going to have to look at this tomorrow, I encountered multiple issues with different settings, opposite what was expected. So a fresh review is in order!
fldave wrote on 7/9/2010, 8:44 PM
Field reversed frames were what I saw also. Intermittent, though. Weird
musicvid10 wrote on 7/10/2010, 5:19 AM
Hmm, loads properly in VMS10. No apparent freezes or frame reversal. But VP8 and VLC are garbled.

Starting with DVD Architect Widescreen template, a Progressive render with Resample Disabled works really well as JR and others suggested (discards every other frame). Interlaced render also works very well (I "think" all frames are preserved as fields).

In all of twelve tests I ran this morning, I could see no difference with project deinterlace settings off or on.

Bob, please post your Vegas version and operating system so others can give you a better comparison. Thanks.
GS1966 wrote on 7/10/2010, 7:13 AM
Template Properties:
For downconvert from HD to SD or Pan-cropping this setting Incorrectly!
It is very interesting to me, in what cases and for what installation "None" is necessary

In addition:
Each clip 60p in your project should have an EVEN amount of the frames! Only ...0, ...2, ...4, ...6 and ...8
For example - 2076 , 1202 , 3578 etc frames

My result here (render with custom template DVD NTSC Widescreen ), size - 38 MB

PS. From source 60-p possible easily receive any interlaced SD or HD video (with upper or lower field first, or progressive 30p)
farss wrote on 7/10/2010, 7:23 AM
I just took the first two clips into Vegas 9.0e

Put them onto a double NTSC T/L and looked at it frame by frame.
Some not too pleasant compression artifacts and that camera is probably adding more edge enhancement than one would like. The fast moving bubbles in the first clip are causing some nasties and there's some horrors induced in the second clip in front of the fountain, those highlights don't seem to be handled that well by the camera but I've seen much worse and in theory one should be able to get something that looks ok out of it.

So I rendered it to an SD NTSC Widescreen AVI file and it really fell apart and it shouldn't, not that badly. So I changed the T/L to Double NTSC so I could look at it field by field and it's a mess and I have no clue as to why.



I hope someone else can explain what's going on around the groom's coat against the red car. Nothing in the source justifies that mess being there unless it's something wierd from the chroma resampling.

Bob.
Andy_L wrote on 7/10/2010, 7:49 AM
Has anyone tried rendering to an intermediate like MXF and then doing the conversion/render to DVD? Some formats/files do very strange things in Vegas.
Bob Chandler wrote on 7/10/2010, 9:13 AM
To all:

I REALLY appreciate all the focus and help all of you are providing. I am using Vegas 9.0e. I thought my system info was posted, but here it is:
i7 960 3.2 ghz
12 GB RAM
Using raw AVCHD files (did not use MXF or Neoscene, although I do have that, but began feeling I could work natively well enough.

If I can provide any more info, please let me know.

Thanks again for all the attention, and I totally understand how busy everyone is.

Bob
Bob Chandler wrote on 7/10/2010, 1:39 PM
Sorry

Forget to add that it is 64 bit Windows 7 (9e downloaded for that version)
JohnnyRoy wrote on 7/10/2010, 5:46 PM
> Thanks. That's what makes me wonder about using the 30P as earlier suggested, because my understanding is it is preferable to match your shutter speed with the fps. If I then use 30P with 1/30 shutter, the motion would get worse.

Actually that's not correct. Your shutter speed should 2x your frame rate. That's why we shoot at 1/60 for 30fps, 1/50 for 25fps, & 1/48 for 24fps. You should be shooting at 1/120 for 60fps. If you shot 1/30 at 30fps you would get very jerky movements. If you're shooting fast motion you should make it even faster if you want clear frames to slow down.

~jr
JohnnyRoy wrote on 7/10/2010, 6:02 PM
> Then I loaded the footage into Vegas 9.0e and it worked properly. I also loaded one of my 720p60 clips into the same project and they all worked the same.

Same here. I downloaded the first two files, matched media settings in Vegas Pro 9.0e and stepped through them frame-by-frame on Good (Full) with my Shuttle Pro 2 and every frame looked great. I render to DVD Architect NTSC Widescreen, dropped that into a new DV Widescreen project and again every frame looked great.

I don't see the issue with Vegas Pro 9.0e.

~jr
musicvid10 wrote on 7/10/2010, 9:31 PM
I don't see the issue with Vegas Pro 9.0e.

JR,
Thanks for the confirmation that the OP is on safe ground here. I also hope you have 8.0c loaded on a machine somewhere so you can see what the rest of us are experiencing with the downloaded files.

In summation, I think I can say that your suggestion of a Progressive render to a DVD Architect template with Resampling Disabled, or an Interlaced render, will both yield the two best-case scenarios for comparison on his DVD project.

Th OP is probably wondering by know why so many have paid so much attention to a simple new-user question. Maybe it's because on the Sony Vegas forums, we actually give a s**t.

HTH
TeetimeNC wrote on 7/11/2010, 5:21 AM
I posted this video clip here about two years ago. It shows the jittering problem with HMC-150 720p60 footage in Vegas 8c. I submitted a ticket to SCS at that time and they acknowledged the problem with 8c. The problem was fixed in 9 (9b I think).

/jerry
farss wrote on 7/11/2010, 5:58 AM
"I don't see the issue with Vegas Pro 9.0e."

I'd love to know then what others more used to looking at NSTC than me make of this:
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=719188

I've shot some 720p50 with the EX1 and converted that to SD 50i without any unexpected issues. What I see happening with this footage in V9.0e is hard to explain. I also tried rendering to Uncompressed AVI and those artifacts are not there. Strange.

Bob.
robwood wrote on 7/11/2010, 8:16 AM
couple thoughts occur from reading original OT...

1) checked to confirm the source footage sharp? (shouldn't shutter speed be 1/120, not 1/60? (not sure))
2) did you try Disable Resample in Event > Properties > Video Event?
3) did u try dropping Undersample Rate to 0.5? (also Event > Properties > Video Event)
JohnnyRoy wrote on 7/11/2010, 10:26 AM
> [i]I also hope you have 8.0c loaded on a machine somewhere so you can see what the rest of us are experiencing with the downloaded files.[i]

In fact, I do on my Win XP machine so I just booted it up and took a look and OMG it looks like random access video! It was just jumping around and random frames back and forth and no amount of settings changes would fix it. Wow... that was pretty funny looking, I get it now. (glad I'm on Vegas Pro 9.0e) ;-)

~jr
musicvid10 wrote on 7/11/2010, 1:10 PM
"random access video"

Ha, I like that! Sounds like a good name for a future effect or technique.