A bit irritating... what gives??

MH_Stevens wrote on 4/24/2007, 5:47 AM

Maybe Sony is waiting until Vegas is 64 bit. I'm wondering whether Cineform is developing a conversion for Vegas editing similar to the Canopus AVCHD Converter.

blink3times wrote on 4/24/2007, 5:55 AM

I don't know but one would think it to be a tad embarrassing for Sony/madison!?

farss wrote on 4/24/2007, 6:12 AM

I was thinking the same thing myself today, why the big thing about 64 bit, and AVCHD was all I could think of. Apart from that going 64 bit really addresses nothing that anyone's been asking for. Worse still from what I can see a full on 64bit rig with maxed out RAM is anything but cheap and what does it give us, about the same performance that GPU acceleration offers at a much lower cost.
The other dumb aspect to this is many of us have already invested in high end GPUs for the other apps that we run. This hardware agnostic mantra might have had some merit a few years ago when GPU tech and drivers were problematic and expensive but the wrinkles seem ironed out long ago, if they weren't there'd be a lot of very expensive apps crashing all over the place.
Somewhere today I read an announcement of a hardware AVCHD chip that runs at 10x RT, built around Sony's cell CPU. I guess that chip will end up in every Sony product except Vegas.
Am I alone in thinking it's time for Vegas to shift it's theology from agnostic to catholic?

Bob.

JJKizak wrote on 4/24/2007, 6:28 AM

Oh God!

JJK

blink3times wrote on 4/24/2007, 7:13 AM

I read an announcement of a hardware AVCHD chip that runs at 10x RT, built around Sony's cell CPU. I guess that chip will end up in every Sony product except Vegas
===============================

Well I wonder if hardware isn't the holdup for vegas and AVCHD.... vegas has never really been hardware specific. Ulead is not hardware specific, but then you can only do LIMITED avchd work... you can't actually do any serious edit work.

Avid (Pinnacle) on the other hand, has always been hardware driven, and they're minimum specs for avchd editing on the new studio 11 is a core duo, 256M DX9 video card, and 1.5 gigram.... that's not chicken feed when it comes to MINIMUM hardware.

Spot|DSE wrote on 4/24/2007, 7:20 AM

They *announced* it. Not shipping it. If it were easy, everyone would already have it, particularly the codec guru/warriors at CineForm. Sony announced it long ago, and said they'd ship "spring" of 2007.
AVCHD shouldn't have been mentioned at NAB, as NAB is a professionals show, not a consumer show, and AVCHD is a consumer format at current, with a path working towards the pro-sumer market.

blink3times wrote on 4/24/2007, 7:29 AM

They *announced* it. Not shipping it.

Gone a bit further than that I just preodered my studio 11 copy.... so they're shipping soon.

http://www.pinnaclesys.com/studioultimatepreorder/

MH_Stevens wrote on 4/24/2007, 7:48 AM

That seems one hell of package for $69 - and with HD DVD Authoring to standard DVD! And look at the extras like capture cards and chroma drop cloths all for $20 each. But the funny thing is I don't see HD DVD authoring in the $499 Liquid?

blink3times wrote on 4/24/2007, 7:55 AM

That's the upgrade price... not sure what the full price is. It's still a full version... you just need the serial number from your previous version for the install. But this according to GuyS on another board:

I've had Stage Tools for quite a few years. I think I paid $300 for it. This is an awesome program. The quality of the zooms and pans is exceptionally good, not at all like what you get from doing it within Liquid using the 2D editor.

But Pinnacle has always been known to put on a bit of a show and slash prices on a new open.

rmack350 wrote on 4/24/2007, 8:05 AM

64-bit gives you more addressable memory but it also allows you to install a graphics card with more memory on it. If GPU coprocessing were in the future then this is another reason to go 64-bit.

Our pp2 systems with an axio card, a 512 MB graphics card, and other hardware can only address 2.4 GB out of the 4GB installed. We'd get all 4 GB if we could use a 64-bit OS.

A major overhaul like this also opens the door for other work on Vegas that might not have otherwise been budgeted.

Last note. No one has said, afaik, that 32-bit Vegas development will stop. No one has said anything, one way or another.

Rob Mack

Tech Diver wrote on 4/24/2007, 8:05 AM

I'm rather surprised that some folks are actually considering buying Pinnacle Studio. Based on past history, that software has consistently been one of the most unstable products in video editing.

blink3times wrote on 4/24/2007, 8:20 AM

I'm rather surprised that some folks are actually considering buying Pinnacle Studio. Based on past history, that software has consistently been one of the most unstable products in video editing.

I tend to agree with that.. I've had Pinnacle since version 9. It's a good program on paper but in practice it has had quite a few bugs... not a problem if you know the secrets and work arounds, but if you're a new user, then good luck. :)

But Pinnacle has been purchased by Avid and this is the first release that Avid that has been let out PURELY by Avid. The last release (version10) was caught in the middle of the take-over. It will be interesting to see if studio 11 is different. It now for example contains the new upgraded Liquid render engine.

John_Cline wrote on 4/24/2007, 8:51 AM

I'm not impressed with the quality of the image of AVCHD. As it's currently implemented, they have chosen to use it at a much lower bitrate than HDV and it doesn't look as good as HDV. They chose to lower the data rate, not improve image quality. Now, if they used AVCHD at the 25-megabit data rate of HDV, then we might have something.

According to an article at camcorderinfo.com, "In 13Mbps HF mode, we found AVCHD to produce very sharp HD video that looked very close to HDV in terms of quality, with slightly more noise, and some motion trailing. Though the difference is subtle at first glance, AVCHD video holds up poorly relative to HDV over multiple generations."

I just don't see it as a serious acquisition format at the moment. I'm sure this will change.

John

blink3times wrote on 4/24/2007, 8:57 AM

I'm not impressed with the quality of the image of AVCHD.

And I'm in FULL agreement with that too... I'll take good ole fashion mpeg2 at 25M any day!

riredale wrote on 4/24/2007, 2:19 PM

What I don't get is that they chose half the bitrate but with a format that is supposedly twice as good as MPEG2, so in theory (to me, at least) the images should be pretty much identical. Instead, we hear that there are artifacts and noise. Why? Haven't they "dialed in" the key parameters of this new format yet?

GlennChan wrote on 4/24/2007, 8:09 PM

regarding the professional-ness of AVC HD:
Isn't Panasonic doing an intraframe AVC HD codec at 100mbps 4:2:2 for professional use?

Spot|DSE wrote on 4/24/2007, 9:15 PM

they claim to be heading there, announced products, etc.
We'll see if it gets there or not. The entire AVC format is based on GOP, and Panasonic seems/suggests they've circumvented this aspect.

John_Cline wrote on 4/24/2007, 9:54 PM

Panasonic's DVCPRO HD is already an intraframe 100mbps codec at 4:2:2. However, I see where they are releasing what they call "AVC-Intra" which has two HD modes; 100mbps and 50mbps for use with their P2 card cameras. From what I've read, this is a completely different animal than AVCHD encoding.

Speaking of Panasonic and their P2 cards, I think Sony is about to hit a home run with their recently announced XDCAM EX flash-based camcorder. Instead of using legacy PCMCIA technology like Panasonic's P2 cards, they'll be using SxS cards, co-developed with Sandisk, which are smaller in size and faster. Not to mention potentially far less expensive since the SxS cards can be used in many other applications. SxS cards will become a commodity item, while P2 cards will remain expensive because only the Panasonic camcorders use them and they are only manufactured by Panasonic.

http://www.sandisk.com/Corporate/PressRoom/PressReleases/PressRelease.aspx?ID=3770

John

DrLumen wrote on 4/25/2007, 8:59 AM

They *announced* it. Not shipping it.

Burn the heretic!!! j/k

But seriously, I had enough abuse from Pinnacle. I think the main reason that they run so many 'specials' is the app doesn't work - at least in my experience - and therefore is too expensive at whatever the price.

YMMV.

John_Cline wrote on 4/25/2007, 9:45 AM

I don't care who owns it, it's still Pinnacle. I had a series of fairly public run-ins with Pinnacle about five years ago (primarily around that I had discovered a huge colorspace conversion flaw in their DV codec, they denied it for quite a while and then finally admitted that it did exist. They eventually fixed it and issued an apology to their users.) Based on these previous dealings with them, their hardware and their software, I will never purchase anything from them again.

John

Tech Diver wrote on 4/25/2007, 10:08 AM

I too had horrendous experiences with Pinnacle a few years ago and would never consider getting any product from them ever again. There are many people in this forum that have switched from Pinnacle to Sony that can surely echo my sentiment.

MH_Stevens wrote on 4/25/2007, 12:52 PM

I too switched from Pinnacle, but isn't the new Pinnacle meant to be a whole new world after the takeover?

blink3times wrote on 4/25/2007, 1:09 PM

That's an interesting question. I use quite a few programs and Pinnacle is still one of them (I know where the bugs are :) ). I just pre ordered my version 11 copy and we'll see how it preforms. Avid now owns it and according to them is has been rebulit...they even ditched the old render engine and installed the liquid render engine. So I don't know... I don't expect too much... but the price is good and it's supposed to include Stagetools which is worth more than the buy price all by itself.

We'll see.

johnmeyer wrote on 4/25/2007, 1:11 PM

I think that colorspace issue was actually caused by the Microsoft DV codec they were using. Terrible colorshifts when rendering. The solution was to temporarily install (via copying one file) the older version of that DLL just prior to rendering.

As for Pinnacle, I recommended it (and still do) to lots of people because it is SO MUCH EASIER to learn than any other program. For those people that just want to cut some video, add a voice-over, add a few transitions, and then create a tape or disc, it's tough to beat.

The key thing for this thread that should be noted is that they have done a VERY good job -- much better than Sony -- in adding features that users want and which help with the workflow. Here are some examples, almost all of which I have harped on both in these forums and in letters directly to Sony. Others have mentioned these as well:* Video and Audio Restoration
* Camera stabilization (i.e., "deshaker")
* Smartsound (i.e., Cinescore built-in)
* Read MPEG-4 and DiVx formats
* Automatic scene indexing for DVDs
* Optical scene detection
* Import from DVD (rather than just from "camcorder disc," which often doesn't work with a previously authored DVD)
I can find lots more, but I don't have time.

While I am not in any way arguing that anyone would want to switch from Vegas to Studio 11, I AM very definitely saying that Pinnacle's marketing department have done a FAR better job both listening to their customers and understanding the competitive environment. While it is true that Studio is a consumer tool whereas Vegas is prosumer production tool (although certainly not a broadcast tool), nonetheless all the features I listed above cannot be classified as things that only the unwashed masses would want (such as "wizards," ten million useless transitions, video templates, etc.). Those we don't need.

So, to me, the irritation expressed elsewhere in this thread -- and which I share -- is not with the excellent engineering incorporated into Vegas, but with the apparent total lack of product marketing input to those wonderful engineers.