In your DVDA project, include just the 5.1 audio, not both sets.
The rest will take care of itself, and the 2.0 downmix will play fine on non-Dolby equipped sound systems.

You'll get reliable and predictable results if you prepare you video and audio in Vegas and render as separate files. I just demuxed the audio from some m2ts from a similar AVCHD camera and DVD Architect still wanted to recompress the resulting AC3 file. I work with AVCHD files and burn Blu-ray images on DVD media all the time and I always use Vegas Pro to prepare the assets with good results.

Thanks for all the good advice. I have a few more questions.

bStro: I'm writing a BDMV structure on a 4.7g disc. I've tried using Vegas Pro to create a separate ac3 audio file, but I think it may still contain both streams. There doesn't seem to be a way to extract only the surround stream.

John_dennis: How did you separate the 2 audio streams?

Everything would be much simpler if the camera didn't encode the extra downmix audio stream in the first place!

...Len

For this experiment, I used tsMuxer

I don't think the camera actually saves two audio streams. I could be wrong, maybe others know for sure. When I open the files from my camera, I see six channels on the Vegas Pro timeline. This is given that I set the project properties to 5.1.

I'm writing a BDMV structure on a 4.7g disc.

Sorry, I forgot that DVDA can do that now. Thanks for the reminder.

Rob

I've tried using Vegas Pro to create a separate ac3 audio file, but I think it may still contain both streams. There doesn't seem to be a way to extract only the surround stream.

I think you're confusing streams with player flags. I don't know about your camcorder, but Vegas and DVDA don't create extra streams that you haven't added. May I suggest you check all your .vob files with MediaInfo. It will tell you everything that is there, including multiple audio streams, if present.

When I use Vegas Pro 9 to view the properties of the the mt2s camera file, it describes 1 video stream and 2 audio streams. Audio stream 1 is the stereo downmix and audio stream 2 is the 5.1 surround. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be a way to discard the stereo downmix stream within Vegas or DVDA.

Common sense would suggest that when you set the project properties to 5.1 surround, the software would use the proper 5.1 surround stream. That is what happens when I use other software such as Nero to burn the disc. Vegas also correctly inserts the 5.1 audio into the event timeline. However when Vegas renders the file, it preserves both audio streams in the output. Why can't DVDA be smart about choosing the correct stream, especially if it doesn't give you the option to select it?

...Len

If I drag a .vob with a 5.1 AC-3 audio track onto a 5.1 project timeline, Vegas properties report two "streams," the stereo downmix and the 5.1 surround. The stereo flag is there for non-5.1 projects; it is not a separate stream.

I did not put two separate streams in my DVDA project, nor did Vegas or DVDA decide to do so on its own. I hope that is clear.

However, if you are convinced there are two streams, upload a short sample of your original video somewhere . Let us verify your observations.

Did you check it in TSMuixer or MediaInfo as suggested?

I checked several mt2s camera files and several Vegas rendered files with MediaInfo. Each time it reports 1 video stream and 1 audio (5.1) stream. Apparently Vegas Pro has a different interpretation of audio stream. Vegas clearly describes the properties of each of 2 distinct audio streams.

If MediaInfo is correct and Vegas is wrong, then I still have a problem with the audio rendered by DVDA. The finished disc has no audio in any of the 4 surround channels. If I burn the disc with Nero, the audio is fine. DVDA displays only a stereo track in its timeline, but that may be how it's supposed to work.

...Len

I did another experiment this evening. From Vegas 9.0c I rendered one minute of avc video using the Sony AVC template 1440x1080 15mbps plus a 5.1 ac3 file and a 2 channel stereo ac3 file using the Dolby Digital AC-3 Pro encoder within Vegas.

I made a Blu-ray image of these files with the 5.1 file as audio track 1 and the stereo file as audio track 2. I burned the image to DVD 5 using IMGBurn and played on a Sony S550 Blu-ray player. The surround sound was present and played as did the stereo track.

I took the disk back to the edit workstation and opened another project in Vegas identical to the one that I used originally, 1440x1080 AVC, 5.1. From the d:\BDMV\STREAM folder on the Blu-ray (DVD) I moved the file, 0000.m2ts to the timeline. Because I had two audio tracks on the disk, Vegas added the original six channels from the 5.1 stream and two channels from the stereo stream. All channels had audio. Looking at the properties of the 5.1 stream, Vegas still reported a stereo stream and a 5.1 stream. Looking at the stereo stream that had been audio track 2 on the disk, Vegas reported a stereo stream (and rightly so). I'm not prone to worry about what Vegas calls a stream and why there is consistently a stereo down mix stream shown for 5.1 files. I suspect it is for compatibility for stereo output. The process works if you edit in Vegas, render elementary streams and input into DVD Architect.

Interesting. That's how I'd expect it to work. I'm beginning to wonder if my DVD Architect Pro 5 is messed up because I also have a previous installation of DVD Architect Studio 4.5. I'm going to remove the other (non-pro) version of DVDA from my computer and see if it behaves better. DVDA 4.5 doesn't have much blu-ray or ac3 support.

When you prepared your test image, I assume you were using DVDA Pro 5? Why did you not use it to burn the disc too?

...Len

'you were using DVDA Pro 5? Why did you not use it to burn the disc too?"

I do use DVD Architect 5.0b on Windows 7 64 bit. I sometimes use DVD Architect to burn media but I usually use IMGBurn. 1) Habit 2) IMGBurn gets the job done without tying up DVD Architect so I can be doing something else.

Here's an important clue. Whether I use ac3 audio embedded in an mt2s file or a separate ac3 audio file created by Vegas Pro, DVDA always insists that the audio is non-compliant and must be re-compressed (and possibly destroyed?). The audio in each case is 5.1 surround at 48k sampling with 448k total bit rate. Why isn't this compliant? Nero doesn't re-compress it. This may be the heart of the problem.

...Len

Perhaps you could put a snippet of the raw mt2s file on a download site so I could see if my configuration produces the same result?

Here's a link to a raw camera file in Vimeo:

http://vimeo.com/10584704

You can download the original file.

...Len

I downloaded the subject file and rendered a number of projects in Vegas Pro 9.0c on Windows 7 64bit.

Project 1 _ Separate Streams Dolby Digital AC3 Pro template
Rendered video using the Sony AVC template =Blu-ray 1440x1080-60i, 15mbps video stream

Rendered separate 5.1 audio using the Dolby Digital AC3 Pro template.

Set up a project in DVD Architect 5.0b =Blu-ray 1440x1080-60i, 5.1 Surround

Prepared an ISO of a Blu-ray and wrote to DVD-RW with IMGBurn.

I opened the file from the Blu-ray disk d:\BDMV\STREAM\0000.m2ts in Vegas Pro and all six channels were present and had audio.



Project 2 _ Separate Streams Dolby Digital AC3 Studio template

Rendered video using the Sony AVC template =Blu-ray 1440x1080-60i, 15mbps video stream

Rendered separate 5.1 audio using the Dolby Digital AC3 Studio template.

Set up a project in DVD Architect 5.0b =Blu-ray 1440x1080-60i, 5.1 Surround

DVD Architect required the audio be rendered because "The audio on track 1 of 'AC3 Studio 5.1 Surround' will be compressed.

Prepared an ISO of a Blu-ray and wrote to DVD-RW with IMGBurn.

I opened the file from the Blu-ray disk d:\BDMV\STREAM\0000.m2ts in Vegas Pro 9.0c and all six channels were present but only the Front Left and Front Right channels had audio.



Project 3 _ DVD

Changed the AC3 Studio project in DVD Architect to DVD. The video had to be recompressed but the AC3 from the "Studio" passed without recompression.

Prepared a DVD folder and wrote to DVD-RW with IMGBurn.

I opened the file from the DVD VTS_01_1.vob in Vegas Pro and all six channels were present and had audio.



Project 4 _ AVCHD Template Combined Video and Audio Streams

Rendered video using the Sony AVC template =Blu-ray 1440x1080-60i 5.1 Surround

Set up a project in DVD Architect 5.0b =Blu-ray 1440x1080-60i, 5.1 Surround

DVD Architect recompressed the audio giving the following message: "The audio on track 1 of 'AC3 Studio 5.1 Surround' will be compressed.

Prepared an ISO of a Blu-ray and wrote to DVD-RW with IMGBurn.

I opened the file from the Blu-ray disk d:\BDMV\STREAM\0000.m2ts in Vegas Pro 9.0c and all six channels were present but only the Front Left and Front Right channels had audio.


Conclusion: DVD Architect 5.0b will pass 5.1 Surround Sound files but if it recompresses the audio, it will render in stereo for Blu-ray projects. For Blu-ray projects, AC3 must be rendered from the AC3 Pro template in Vegas to pass without recompression. DVD projects will pass AC3 Studio audio files without recompression and maintain all channels. The AVCHD template that renders combined video and audio uses the AC3 Studio codec so it won't pass through DVD Architect without recompression for Blu-ray projects. I suspect the raw files from the camera are considered "consumer" or "Studio" files, also.

John, you're a genius! You have put in a lot of effort to uncover these idiosyncrasies of DVDA. Thank you for all this work.

I tried the Pro version of the ac3 encoder and it worked as it did for you. I used DVDA to prepare & burn the disc. Clearly this appears to be a bug in DVDA. I can't believe that it was designed to produce only stereo from a legitimate 5.1 audio source using a 5.1 project template.

I wonder what the difference is between studio and Pro ac3 audio files.

...Len

"I wonder what the difference is between studio and Pro ac3 audio files."

Don't know, but likely involves licensing.

Glad you were successful.

"I wonder what the difference is between studio and Pro ac3 audio files."

I think it was nice of john_dennis to do the research for you, and yet this is ground that has been covered several times before. Here is a parallel thread that gives some more details:
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=703642

By all means, build a template from musicvid's link. I did a long time back and I use it exclusively.

I got so distracted by the stream count discussion, I forgot to even search.