"1) A quick look at your DVDA timeline shows one immediate problem, your chapter markers are not on I frames."

Duly noted; however when locating the I frames, I discovered that they're not inline with my intended loop points. That stated, should I simply nix the chapter points and import each small 8-20 second loop and link to it directly?

"2) You're relying on the player's remote instructing the DVD player to loop a chapter. I know for certain how whatever DVDA / The Player decides to do when a button is pressed is a source of grief."

Is this a separate concern or is this a continuation of the I frames issue? If it is indeed a different issue, I am not clear on what you are suggesting.

"3) End actions are critical as you have a hierarchical menu structure, after viewing a clip the viewer needs to go back to the menu they came from possibly with the next menu item highlighted. This should work OK but again which button on the remote does what is problematic if the viewer wants to abort watching a video."

The only end actions about which I'm aware in DVDA are for menus - my choices are either loop, hold, or activate button. What specifically are you suggesting I do here?
EDIT: I just thought about this some more - do you mean assigning an end action to each video asset/clip perhaps?

"As far as I can see you do need to have a lot of individual clips, this isn't a single movie with chapters, it's a lot of little movies."

Agreed, hence my original notion of importing just under 100 video assets, all of which would be directly linked.

"I'd suggest buying a spindle of DL disks, having to throw them away after a test is a trivial expense in the big picture. I do wonder why you need to go to DL, how many minutes of actual content are there? Given the topic more than 120 minutes is a lot and two hours of video will fit well onto a single layer DVD. On top of that I doubt your audience are pixel peepers. Getting away from DL would seem a big step in the right direction as switching layers does take a player some time."

I haven't tallied the minutes to the second, but I am most concerned with obtaining the best possible quality from the high noise-floor DV footage which comprises all of the action sequences. As well, I pushed the 4:2:0 Canon XL2 to its limits in the cyclorama - not to mention countless studio lighting inconsistencies (the studio owner was a psychotic imbecile and the lighting layout changed every time I arrived in to film - I came within inches of leveling this nut-job) which required extensive SCC gamma/color adjustments, etc. To my eyes, 8M CBR seems to look best.

On a recent test burn, which included the 33 segments and menus only, DVDA indicated I was already at 3.7GB. To that, I still need to add an additional 35-40 minutes of combined video (routines, instructional, set-up, a 5 minute motion graphic with a timer and multiple selectable sound tracks for user created custom routines, PLUS 60 individual loops totaling about another 8-10 minutes. I feel I'd have to seriously cut back on the video quality to try and squeeze all that material onto a standard disc.

Is the layer-switching player lag that horrendous that squeezing this mountain of data onto a standard disc would be preferable?

At this point, I really need practical advice to put a plan into action and get this thing buttoned up. While I appreciate the education and abstract observations, I gotta get my glutes in gear with this thing and get er done. I'd tremendously appreciate a straight-forward recipe to finish this thing before it finishes me. I mean c'mon, this isn't that complex a project when you break it down.

Steve, you boldly go where no one has gone before. I think you need to absorb the good advice that's been given, graciously dismiss the rest, and forge ahead. Then you can tell us all how it's done (and thank us later). I'm not going to be of much more help if you have to stick with a matriced flow chart. I'm a pyramid type myself.
;?)

1) Because of how mpeg-2 is encoded you cannot start displaying video from any point other than an I frame, period. In Vegas if you add Markers and ensure when encoding the "I frames at Markers" check box is ticked then where those markers are there will be I frames.

2) It's an additional issue. What I'm saying is there's a degree of uncertainty over exactly what different buttons on DVD player's remotes will actually do. Certainly in my experience what players do and what DVDA's simulated remote does can be different and between different makes and models of DVD player.

3) [I]"The only end actions about which I'm aware in DVDA are for menus - my choices are either loop, hold, or activate button. What specifically are you suggesting I do here?
EDIT: I just thought about this some more - do you mean assigning an end action to each video asset/clip perhaps?"[/I]

Yes to your edit. I generally always specify exactly what should happen at the end of a video asset / clip. The default "return to last menu" hasn't been too reliable in my experience. For viewer ease in the similar training video I specified which menu to return to and which menu item to highlight. Getting that and navigation flow and menu navigation to make sense is important if you don't want to annoy your audience.

[I]"Is the layer-switching player lag that horrendous that squeezing this mountain of data onto a standard disc would be preferable?"[/I]

I've only made one or two DL DVDs and they were one offs for a specific clients so I could check they played OK on his gear and they were just a single title. I cannot really answer your question with great authority however please consider the following.

CD and DVD is not the same a hard disk. It is a continuous spiral track and that spiral makes it much more difficult for the read head to find a specific place on the disk. Also the layer break does involves some delay and must be on I frames. The laser has to refocus or else a different laser is used. Jumping from a menu on layer one to a specific location (start of a video) on layer 2 has got to take some time as will going back to the menu.

[I]" At this point, I really need practical advice to put a plan into action and get this thing buttoned up. While I appreciate the education and abstract observations, I gotta get my glutes in gear with this thing and get er done. I'd tremendously appreciate a straight-forward recipe to finish this thing before it finishes me. I mean c'mon, this isn't that complex a project when you break it down. "[/I]

Expecting any of us to give you a cookbook of how to get this done by typing text on a forum I'm sorry to have to say is just a bit too much to ask. I doubt many here would approach the task you've set yourself without considerable trepidation.
If you really just want to make it happen then my advice is to hand it over to a professional authoring house, expect a big bill though.

I believe it is doable with the tools at your disposal however you don't seem to have a lot of experience with the various processes involved. On top of that you're pushing the envelope of the capabilities of your tools. Even further you have to wrangle issues in different dimensions, authoring anything beyond a basic DVD is not a simple task, the one complex one I did involved more man hours than shooting and editing the video. Video is sort of a two dimensional problem, a DVD is a three dimensional problem to solve. I'm also concerned that you're under time pressure.

Bob.

MV10,

I have absolutely no Godly idea what you're saying. The below linked video depicts precisely how I feel after trying to interpret some of your responses (I'm in the "Joker's" shoes and my walls are awash with clown white at this point.



Nothing mean-spirited intended here - in fact I hope it brings a laugh or two; it's just such an apropos video allegory.

No offense taken.
Here's the simple answer:

"

You've received a variety of suggestions, but
I really think you're on your own here.

"No offense taken.
Here's the simple answer:

"
I'd tremendously appreciate a straight-forward recipe to finish this thing before it finishes me."

You've received a variety of suggestions, but
I really think you're on your own here."

Yes, a variety of conflicting, truncated suggestions which collectively leave me feeling like the proverbial man with too many watches - he knows not the correct time; I know not the correct path.

So in summary (at least as your keystrokes suggest) this protracted series of 2 lengthy strings, hours squandered on putting together a concise graphical design schematic, numerous replies back and fourth - all has filtered down to an exercise in abject futility? Splendid compadre...splendid.

Bob,

"1) Because of how mpeg-2 is encoded you cannot start displaying video from any point other than an I frame, period. In Vegas if you add Markers and ensure when encoding the "I frames at Markers" check box is ticked then where those markers are there will be I frames."

Understood - I'll look further into that. May I ask however, (you Bob, or anyone kind enough to share some intel) am I able to designate precisely where the I frames should be placed in the video clip? If so, am I correct to assume this is done in the timeline - not just from the rendering template? I understand that checking the "include I frames box" is necessary (it's the default setting on my MPEG2 template anyway), but the designation of them within the video is my question. In other words, if I have a 5 minute MPEG2 comprised of a stitched compilation of 30/ten-second clips to be looped with chapter points later in DVDA, how do I precisely place an I frame where each clip within the larger compilation begins? In my MPEG2 (the clip in the DVDA timeline screen capture), there were I frames, however it appeared that V11 placed them for me in places I didn't want when I dragged the markers.

"2) It's an additional issue. What I'm saying is there's a degree of uncertainty over exactly what different buttons on DVD player's remotes will actually do. Certainly in my experience what players do and what DVDA's simulated remote does can be different and between different makes and models of DVD player."

Understood - would a field trip to the DVD player dept. at my local Best buy help?

"Yes to your edit. I generally always specify exactly what should happen at the end of a video asset / clip. The default "return to last menu" hasn't been too reliable in my experience. For viewer ease in the similar training video I specified which menu to return to and which menu item to highlight. Getting that and navigation flow and menu navigation to make sense is important if you don't want to annoy your audience."

Understood and thanks for the explanation; I will apply your advice.

"I've only made one or two DL DVDs and they were one offs for a specific clients so I could check they played OK on his gear and they were just a single title. I cannot really answer your question with great authority however please consider the following."

I'll contact my replicator today, in fact several and try to get some advice.

"Expecting any of us to give you a cookbook of how to get this done by typing text on a forum I'm sorry to have to say is just a bit too much to ask. I doubt many here would approach the task you've set yourself without considerable trepidation.
If you really just want to make it happen then my advice is to hand it over to a professional authoring house, expect a big bill though."

Actually, I'm not asking for a "cookbook." I really only had and still have a handful of (what I thought were and still contend are relatively addressable questions). This all originated on the DVDA forum where I asked about title/asset limitations and organization. That grew into a somewhat conflicted, multi-opinioned thread which brought me here in hopes of improving my work-model and workflow respectively.

My short-order list of questions is as follows (no cookbooks necessary - perhaps a one pot, 3 or 4 ingredient recipe would do):

(1) Back to my original question: Based on the flow-chart design I uploaded defining my project objectives, am I better off with the one video asset per play-link model or the stitching/I frame/chapter point model to consolidate the approx 100 smaller clips into vastly fewer?
(2) If the answer to the above question is the latter, (the original query of this thread) what is the optimal render template to provide completely lossless video files that I may stitch together in a timeline verses importing large numbers of .veg projects so I may get down to it?
(3) Is the repeatable loop concept I want to implement feasible/doable within the constraints of DVDA without involved scripting or should I just nix the loops feature altogether? Despite the non-I framed designated chapter points in my loops timeline, other than surpassing the intended chapter/loop points by a few frames, the loops work just fine on 3 players of varying types, brands, quality and age. Perhaps it is possible in a technical discussion to make "bad weather" out of what may otherwise be a non or negligible issue - based upon an individual's personal experience, forsaking larger-scale real-world practicality? I say this as I authored a less complex, though similarly designed DVD back in 2003 using DVDA 1.0 or 2.0 (I can't recall). I had the discs duplicated and despite hundreds distributed, not one came back as a coaster. In fact back then I just combined the audio with my MPEG2's, imported, linked and burned.

"I believe it is doable with the tools at your disposal however you don't seem to have a lot of experience with the various processes involved."

Experience notwithstanding (and I should add I'm not completely clueless with NLE), I do have ample grey-matter for the task, a fundamental understanding of Vegas and NLE editing and the ability to comprehend and apply practical suggestions/solutions to address an issue. Let's be honest, I'm not building Richard Branson's newest commuter space vehicle here - I'm just trying to author a lousy exercise DVD with a couple of features to make for a good user experience; it can't be a MENSA members only proposition - c'mon.

"On top of that you're pushing the envelope of the capabilities of your tools. Even further you have to wrangle issues in different dimensions, authoring anything beyond a basic DVD is not a simple task, the one complex one I did involved more man hours than shooting and editing the video. Video is sort of a two dimensional problem, a DVD is a three dimensional problem to solve. I'm also concerned that you're under time pressure."

Based upon DVDA's purported capabilities of hundreds of menus, 30+ multi-lingual subtitle/track levels, etc., etc. - I just don't grasp what is so "where no man hath gone before" trepidation inducing, "3D ethereal" about (if my math is correct) an 18 page menu project with some repeatable loops?? Then again (to quote the "Joker" in the parody I linked above: "Maybe it's just me..."

1) [I]" how do I precisely place an I frame where each clip within the larger compilation begins? In my MPEG2 (the clip in the DVDA timeline screen capture), there were I frames, however it appeared that V11 placed them for me in places I didn't want when I dragged the markers. "[/I]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. You have to add the markers to the Vegas timeline. Then when you use Vegas to encode to mpeg-2 it will place I frames where there are markers. Note, there's some restrictions on how close they can be. You cannot do this in DVDA.

2) [I]" Understood - would a field trip to the DVD player dept. at my local Best buy help?"[/I]

It would however you're going to have to author and burn a DVD first so you can test what happens.

(1) In my opinion create one video file for each title. I *should* work however what Musicvid10 has said troubles me a bit however as far as I can deduce this is the only way you can achieve what you want to do.

(3) [I]" Is the repeatable loop concept I want to implement feasible/doable within the constraints of DVDA without involved scripting or should I just nix the loops feature altogether?"[/I]

You could just have a clip/title that's repeated three times and the viewer select that via a menu item. Personally I'd consider using a script.

[I]"Despite the non-I framed designated chapter points in my loops timeline, other than surpassing the intended chapter/loop points by a few frames, the loops work just fine on 3 players of varying types, brands, quality and age"[/I]

DVDA will move the "markers" to the nearest I frame in the stream which is why you're finding they're a few frames out.

[I]'Perhaps it is possible in a technical discussion to make "bad weather" out of what may otherwise be a non or negligible issue - based upon an individual's personal experience, forsaking larger-scale real-world practicality? I say this as I authored a less complex, though similarly designed DVD back in 2003 using DVDA 1.0 or 2.0 (I can't recall). I had the discs duplicated and despite hundreds distributed, not one came back as a coaster. In fact back then I just combined the audio with my MPEG2's, imported, linked and burned."[/I]

If you've done it before and it worked and now you're just trying to do the same on a bigger scale you're probably ahead of all of us. Of course we're all passing on our bad experiences, we cannot not exactly what you're doing so they may be irrelevant.

Your original question in the DVDA forum was a "how many" question. There's hard limits on the number of chapters and titles etc you can have in a DVD, it's all in the documentation and from memory DVDA will not let you compile a disk that breaks those limits.

Bob.

Bob,

"Maybe I wasn't clear enough. You have to add the markers to the Vegas timeline. Then when you use Vegas to encode to mpeg-2 it will place I frames where there are markers. Note, there's some restrictions on how close they can be. You cannot do this in DVDA."

I thought that would be the case. May I ask how I add the I frames in V11? I Google searched I frames and came up empty. I perused some menus and right clicks over the timeline in V11 and found no command to add I frame. I'd appreciate anyone filling me in on this. As well, is there info or are there docs on I frame restrictions anywhere?

" It would however you're going to have to author and burn a DVD first so you can test what happens."

But of course. I have a few final product installation segs to film here at the house on the 1st. After I button up the last couple of clips I'll burn the entire project to (yes I know they're non-re-writable) DL discs - test them on my home players, then off to Best Buy.

BTW, I called a couple of replication houses and from I've heard so far, there have been no complaints about REPLICATED DVD9 compatibility or layer switching lags. Hopefully the DL master I'll create will be a quasi real-world "acid test" for lag time on multiple players ala Best Buy, Sears, etc. until security escorts me to the parking lot.

"Your original question in the DVDA forum was a "how many" question. There's hard limits on the number of chapters and titles etc you can have in a DVD, it's all in the documentation and from memory DVDA will not let you compile a disk that breaks those limits."

Yo comprendo amigo. As such I wish to take MV10's suggestion and stitch, but I never received an answer to the original question in this string: Instead of importing multiple .veg files into a single timeline for the sake of stitching numerous titles together what is the ZERO lossy render format, e.g. uncompressed .avi with any specific tweaks...etc.?
I should mention one member did suggest MPEG2-MPEG2, but that doesn't seem lossless to me; then again...

"You could just have a clip/title that's repeated three times and the viewer select that via a menu item. Personally I'd consider using a script."

If I properly integrate I frames and maybe tweak the loops a bit, won't that do the job? And if scripting is necessary, is there any docs on that?

Thanks Bob - really appreciate it.
Steve M.

I've skimmed through both this thread and the original one. My conclusion: I'd encode each segment as a separate MPEG-2 file. This will create a separate title for each MPEG-2 file. Given all the navigation requirements, I see nothing but downside to encoding groups of videos, and then trying to navigate within and between portions of each video group. By encoding as separate MPEG-2 files, you end up with total flexibility. I think all other issues mentioned can be handled (see below).

1. As already stated, a DVD disc can only have 99 titles. You have fewer than this, so you're OK. There is nothing wrong with having lots of titles, as long as you don't have 100 or more.

BTW, just as a point of clarification, while a DVD can indeed have more than 99 chapters in each title, if you do this, you cannot directly access any of the chapters above chapter 99, because the DVD remote doesn't let you enter these numbers, and the player doesn't know what to do with them. Other weirdness can happen, so I would strongly recommend against it. I've actually done this, so I'm speaking from experience, not theory. Yes, if you are playing chapter 99 and press the "Chapter +" button, you will go to Chapter 100, but I won't guarantee what will happen if you are playing Chapter 100 and want to go back to the previous chapter.

2. Looping. Few, if any, DVD players can loop seamlessly (i.e., without a slight pause), although software DVD players on a computer (like PowerDVD or WinDVD) often do provide that ability because of the caching that is possible on a computer. Therefore, don't waste time trying to come up with some arrangement that tries to optimize the speed with which a video returns to the beginning of a video and starts playing that video again.

3. Playlists. This is one of several ways to play groups of videos. It has the advantage of letting you re-use the same video assets without increasing the space required on the disc. By contrast, a "Music Compilation" will create a new video object (VOB file) and will increase the space required by an amount equal to the size of the videos in all music compilations. There is also a "Picture Compilation" but I can't remember off the top of my head what it does when populated with video instead of still photos.

4. Scripts. I have written hundreds of DVD Architect scripts. The first time I did it, I was slightly put off because I thought it was going to be complicated. When I actually did it, I found that it was almost trivial, although when you have to attach scripts to dozens of videos, it does involve extensive cutting & pasting.

Scripts can be inserted both prior to, as well as after the playing of each MPEG-2 file. They can be used to control looping, as well as make playing of a particular asset conditional on some operation a user has previously taken. Thus, you can set a "state" where the user clicks on a button that says "Click this button to repeat all videos." When the user clicks on that button, you set a variable (a "register," in DVD parlance). You then create a script that is invoked as the end action for each video. That script looks at the register you set, and if it is equal to 1, you loop back to the beginning, and if is set to 0, you go to a specific menu.

With 60+ video assets, this will be a lot of script writing, and will be a healthy undertaking. However, scripts can be copied/pasted, so once you have it working for one MPEG-2 file, you simply create more scripts, paste the code, and change the two lines that point to loop point and to the menu you want to go to if you don't loop. Actually, as shown in the example files I provide below, you can create a single script with code that makes the decision based on what MPEG-2 file is playing.

5. Trick. One problem that I think has been mentioned is that every DVD player navigates differently when it comes to titles. I am speaking of the problem that happens when the user presses the "Chapter +" button on the remote. If you are at the last chapter in the current title and then press the "Chapter +" button on the DVD's remote control, some DVD players will go to the next title. Other players will only do this if it is enabled in a "setup preference" in the DVD's setup menu. Still others simply won't do anything, or will go to the last-used menu. In addition, you might not want the user to go to the next title. Also, the term "next title" depends on the title order you set within the DVDA dialog (under the File menu).

A clever trick to get around both these problems is to do two things: 1. Set the end action for the current MPEG-2 file to point to the next MPEG-2 file you want to go to. 2. Place a chapter marker 1 second before the end of the MPEG-2 file. There is a limit as to how close to the end of the file you can place this marker, and I don't remember off-hand what it is. If you get it too close, DVD Architect will give you a warning just prior to the Prepare operation, and you can move it a little further away. What this trick does is let the end action take care of the navigation instead of relying on the DVD player. Thus, if the user wants to go to the next video (i.e., the next title) and presses the "Chapter +" button, the DVD player will go to the next chapter in the current title, which is the chapter mark that is one second or less from the end of the file. This will play so quickly that the user won't even see the video (especially if you have a fade to black at the end of the clip), and the player will immediately follow the end action, which takes the user to the next title.

Given all the talent in this forum, if you end up with a specific question to a specific problem, I'm sure someone can come up with a way to solve the problem, similar to my "trick" above.

Here's a link to an example DVD Architect project, including two short MPEG-2 files, that shows how a script can be used to control looping, among other things.

DVD Architect Example, Including MPEG-2 Files

This zip file is less than 10MB, so it will be quick download. I used DVD Architect 4.0, so the project should work with pretty much any modern version of DVD Architect.

P.S. While I was writing this, I noticed the question about I frames. They are created when you add a marker, but only if you choose the option to add them at marker locations (which you do in the MPEG-2 rendering dialog).

P.P.S. The two MPEG-2 files have a field offset problem, so don't be surprised if they look "funky." I was given these by a sports film collector, and was able to separate each interlaced field, shift the odd fields down by one scan line, and then reassemble the results. It now looks great.

"however as far as I can deduce this is the only way you can achieve what you want to do."

If you search "playlist" on the DVDA forum you will find discussions of how they have worked for others who were faced with roughly the same needs and roadblocks as yours. However, I'm not able to advise you on implementation, and Ben Nash's thread indicates that using playlists to bypass complex end actions is not universally successful either.

[I]"I thought that would be the case. May I ask how I add the I frames in V11? I Google searched I frames and came up empty. I perused some menus and right clicks over the timeline in V11 and found no command to add I frame. I'd appreciate anyone filling me in on this. As well, is there info or are there docs on I frame restrictions anywhere?"[/I]

You cannot "add I frames in Vegas".

You add Markers, press the M key to do that. You can add text labels to them as well.

THEN when you render to mpeg-2 the Main Concept encoder will encode so that there are I frames where you placed the markers on the Vegas timeline.

Bob.

John,

Thanks big time for the comprehensive explanations and suggestions! There's quite a bit to digest at this very moment, but I'm convinced there is a wealth of useful info contained within your reply - especially the loop script.

It appears that the simple loop script you've created can be copied/pasted with only the need to redirect links to each loop title and respective play button. It seems utilizing your script eliminates the need to stitch the 60 loop titles and makes the looping process independent of the player's unpredictable repeat function. This script can save me some potential headaches if I'm understanding its purpose correctly.

If I am accurate in understanding the application of your looping script, this could be quite helpful in my project! I should add that I will have more than 60 titles total in this project; I'll have to stitch my full routine titles and my intro/setup titles as well to just squeak under the 99 title limit, but precise chapter points in these two sections are not critical - in fact my longer clips all have 3 second fade-ins and outs, so I should be golden.

All stated, I like the workflow you propose as it does indeed allow me to maintain full flexibility - which was the original intention of segmenting the exercise clips as I have - essentially each of which (as another member put it) is a separate entity.

Thanks for your well thought out interesting reply - I'm already certain I'm the better for having this info! I'll let you know how it all works out.

Cheers,
Steve M.