Am I going in the right direction...Red?


PipelineAudio wrote on 3/22/2004, 7:58 AM
And we're tilting at windmills. I know Im the one always screaming for features in vegas that would let me truly capture great performances, unshackled. But for what? My daily driver musclecar has enough torq to uproot any of the tract houses being built around the desert and enough horsepower to run the quarter mile in under 12 seconds. But for what?

I LOVE having headroom, but still. I have a reputation for doing this audiophile jazz and (oh I hate the term) "ethnic Jazz", where the dynamics must be so that a horn player can break your windows, but you better be able to hear the most subtle brush mark on a snare. But my personal record collection is Misfits, Cockney Rejects, Suicidal Tendencies, Meatmen, and of course, ABBA. Jazz producers would turn green and purple if they saw what I listened to. I can appreciate their performances, and I can appreciate the do it yourself, Kmart special, el cheapo sound of my favorite punk albums as well, especially the songwriting

But for what?

I really got going in this bizz right where the pinnacle of songwriting, plus playing ability, plus recording technology were at a huge peak, seeming to get batter and more challenging everyday. Albums like Judas Priest's Painkiller, Black Sabbaths Dehumanizer, and Bonnie Rait's Nick of time were just coming out. Here I was thinking man this is only going to get better and better! For a brief period the mid to late 80's period of carbon copy bands was gone, and even country players were hiring heavy metal drummers, what could be better?

But for what? Pearl Garden Pilots and all that stuff came out, every band copied the "cat people" vocal style, and the playing just went out the window. How depressing

Now people are craving a technical playing style again, but so very few can do it. Now I have the technical power to fix almost anything, and the new lazy shmoes KNOW it. They decide that they will come in, and play one part right once, and that youll copy it a thousand times to make a song. They expect to sing like crap, total crap, and they KNOW what autottune is. They hear the Three Doors Down song, and arent offended by the pathjetic autotune in automode all over it.

I get a few players in every once in a while, but working bands in arizona are almost non existent, as their jobs have either been imported or exported (the second being a problem all over the country I guess, but the first uniquely endemic to Arizona to a degree even california and texas arent dealing with). I get "big name" holdovers in every once in a while, from past work, and they can play, but even THEY know how much cheaper they can make it with a bit of copy and paste and autotune, and few care about the hit in sound quality.

So here I am again, with the exception of the odd Dixieland Jazz Band, or super shredder thrash band, I am pretty much stuck creating performances. Its a sad world, but thank god for vegas, I wouldnt want to be editing this crap together in nuendo!
cosmo wrote on 3/22/2004, 9:39 AM
Now there's a mouthful. Editing those kind of details in a steinberg app wouldn't be fun at all.

It's funny to hear you say that everyone knows that copy/paste and autotune etc are available and therefore tend to back off the performance, or get lazy. I really think that's a bit lame, and just plain sorry. I mean, when I track at home and it's just me - or me and my friend that plays bass - I always do take after take until I get the whole thing done right. I know editing is available but I much prefer to say "that was tracked live, so to speak". Be it vocal, guitars, solos or whatever, we try and do our takes in one shots or not at all. Granted there's usually a tad bit of vocal overdubs but for the mostpart I stay away from that.

It's just sad really....Pipeline's post that is. Well - remember where this thread started? I've got a new song this week...first draft master. This time I used monitors -) Shred it guys!!! If you want.
heinz3110 wrote on 3/22/2004, 11:30 AM

Listened to your new song.First impressions:
-Compared to the very first version of the very first song you posted,the "astma-compression"-fenomenom of the drums is gone.And that's good.Makes me less nervous.:)
- Maybe other people will experience this more or less on their systems,but to me the mix sounds "boxy"....there is a resonance present at the 125-250 Hz range
(I "measured" this roughly..) ...for what I could here, the strings collide with the guitars frequency wise in this spectrum.
-Song is intriguing and has atmospere .Nice.


cosmo wrote on 3/22/2004, 1:14 PM
Hey - thanks Gerard. Interesting point on the strings and guitars clashing. I wonder if comparing them individually to see their spectrums would yield some sort of plan of attack to let them live side by side. Hmmm. I agree though to an extent there. Still first draft mix though and yes - beats the h*ll out of that suffocating mix from a few weeks ago!

Also to remember for that mix is the sequencing between sections is a tad bit off at times. Fix coming.

Thanks for your comments. Of interesting, and pathetic note - all of the samples for that song were from one 4 minute take of news headlines. All that nastiness...and there was more that didn't make it!
Rednroll wrote on 3/22/2004, 1:56 PM
Check your email. I sent you a little remix I did of that song. Just added an additional vocal part, that I mentioned to you before. I think that's a good song, so hopefully you like what I did. I think it makes it a tad better. Still haven't gotten a chance to listen to it in my studio for technical notes. If you like it and want to do the same thing to the split tracks, let me know and I'll send you the .Veg file. I used all Vegas FX's so it should be pretty easy for you to recreate it, by copying and pasting the track and using the events as a guide for placement to get the same FX.

Also, the link you posted my song too doesn't seem to work. I don't think you gave access to the "shared" folder. If you can fix it, feel free to post the link in the forum and let everyone shred my mix if they want.

cosmo wrote on 3/22/2004, 2:21 PM
Nothing on email here yet Rednroll, watching for it though. I was gonna try your EQ trick last night and never got to it, on the list though. I like the idea of a preview -)

You know, that share folder is fugged man, couldn't tell you why. I'll fix that ASAP...I didn't realize it until this morning. I'll post that link in a few hours. Apologies.
Rednroll wrote on 3/22/2004, 2:29 PM
I think we both have email filter problems. I resent it using the trick we did last time.
cosmo wrote on 3/22/2004, 3:35 PM
I'm sure.

Here's Rednroll's track. Red can give details.
PeterWright wrote on 3/23/2004, 11:44 PM
I'm not into Christian rock, but it's well recorded and mixed.
Weevil wrote on 3/24/2004, 12:58 AM
Red this isn’t a professional standard mix at all, it’s crap, it’s terrible, it’s a huge big stinking TURD of a mix.

...I’m kidding mate... :-)

It’s obviously very cool.

Sonically is really good, it sounds really well put together and very professional.

It’s hard for me to be very objective and critical because this is soooooo musically far away from my world. This kinda sounds like an R&B track with rap vox. I can totally get Eminem but R&B is a massive blind spot for me.

If I do A/B this with ‘Lose Yourself’, the thing I notice straight away is how much more vibe and charisma he has. I’m not in some backhanded way trying to devalue what you have done, because I in no way think it’s a technical mix or tracking issue. It totally sounds like issues with the arrangement and performance to me.

Even though the vocal is trying to be out there and provocative it doesn’t really engage me. Not like Eminem, his performance draws my attention straight away and holds me there the whole time.

Rednroll wrote on 3/24/2004, 2:22 AM
I agree with that, thanks for the feedback. I'm not the artist or the producer on that track so the things you criticized really doesn't fit into my work done on the project. The track wasn't a clone of an Emimen performance, just sonically I used it a reference for mastering. The track was actually recorded and mixed about 2 1/2 years ago, so it was done well before the Eminem track ever existed. I just mastered it 2 weeks ago, to match the spectral qualities and to give similar volume levels compared to comercially released music today.
MrPhil wrote on 3/24/2004, 3:56 AM
It's funny how just because this is an internet forum, the freedom to jump one another seems alright. But I guess hiding behind anonymous user names makes that easier. I'm not asking for you to sugar coat anything, just to stay on topic.
Yeah, we put it to rest.

Here, to be fair, go ahead and take a bite of my work:
It's a mix of some songs from the album we made in 2000.
Note: the mp3 is ripped from a CD that was burned from mp3:s, so if you find some nastyness in the hi frequences area, it's cause of that.
MrPhil wrote on 3/24/2004, 5:27 AM
OK, shredding:

First of all, I liked the song! Tons more interresting than your other one.
Someone else pointed out that the guitars collide with the strings, but actually I think that it's more like they work side by side. If you could find a string with more arc... I would like!

Bring the chanting lead in the beggining and end closer, more in your face. And there also seem to be some kind of rythmic sync problem there. Make them more accurate to rythm.
You worked on the drums! Good! But overall I find rythmic fluctuation or whatever you can call it in english making it a little sloppy in some parts. It's not the drums. I think it's the guitar and strings that don't always correlate together. Make them tighter!

It's an excellent demo version of the song, cause it really brings out a feeling of the song! Now polish it up to become the real version! I would emphasize the piano a bit more.
I like the sound clips too. We used it alot too.

All in all: much better in every way than the other song.
Add: I've listened through crappy speakers at work so I can't comment on frequences this or that.
MrPhil wrote on 3/24/2004, 5:47 AM
This is good!
Not at all my kind of music, but sounds professional all the way to me!
Good work!
Did you mix too, or just master it?
cosmo wrote on 3/24/2004, 7:54 AM
MrPhil - I'm posting a reply in the other thread I started cause this one is a terd ball...too messy for me to play with anymore!! Check thread named User Project Reviews.
Rednroll wrote on 3/24/2004, 9:05 AM
"Did you mix too, or just master it?"
Mixed, mastered, recorded.
bgc wrote on 3/24/2004, 2:54 PM
Cool stuff Red :)
MrPhil wrote on 3/25/2004, 2:59 AM
Good work!
Weevil wrote on 3/25/2004, 6:55 PM
Yeah totally, I knew exactly what you were saying in regards to the Emimen track. I just thought it was interesting to contrast them from a ‘production’ point of view.