An impromptu "contest"

Technomage wrote on 4/15/2010, 7:58 PM

Perrone,

Where I work, we have FCP, Autodesk Smoke, Autodesk Flame, Avid Nitris DS, Premiere, After Effects, Nuke X, Cinema4D, and 3D Studio Max. We had Adrenaline's and Meridien based Avids before we replaced them with FCP stations. I am quite familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of each of these products. I won't rehash my entire list, but I will pick a few items and explain.

1. Has 32-Bit float processing for better compositing.
I lead with that for a reason. Even a $75,000+ Smoke system can't do that. Don't believe me, check out page 356 of the manual http://download.autodesk.com/us/systemdocs/pdf/smoke2010_user_guide.pdf It maxes out at 16-bit float. As for the other systems like FCP, Nitris DS, most of them max out at 10-bit. After Effects will do better, but you have to be careful that all of your plug-ins support higher bit float processing. 32-Bit float is usually only found in compositing programs like Nuke, and Fusion. The fact that something like Vegas has it, is very rare.

2. Allows for native .r3d support without the need to convert
You are right and that is not totally unique. It will be even less so in a few months with Avid and Autodesk both joining the party with Vegas, Adobe and few others. But you have to admit that Vegas was one of the first and hopefully it will put more pressure on Apple to get on board.

9. Includes licenses for additional network render nodes.
Smoke includes Backburner licensees for free, but as I said, they are $75,000+ systems. The Nitris DS also has something called RP nodes. They were not free and actually required a USB dongle on each node. I don't know the current cost of a Nitris, but they were 6 figures a few years ago. FCP and Avid have no such provision. Cinema4D, 3DS Max have render software available and can also take advantage of 3rd party systems like Deadline. Deadline even offers 2 free licenses which allow someone to setup a 2-node farm for those apps as well as Maya, After Effects, Blender, Maya, Fusion, RealFlow and several others. But all of those programs are more render intensive than Vegas. As far as NLE software in Vegas' league, network rendering is unheard of.

I can elaborate on the rest of the items on my list if you'd like, but hopefully I've made my point. Now, I do not believe Vegas is perfect and here we have gone from 4 seats of Vegas to only one. Our main problems with Vegas are:

-Playback framerate. Way less than other programs on the exact same hardware. Sony does seem to be trying to address this, but without dumping VFW and/or going to CUDA, I see little hope.

-Does not play well with others. It needs OMF exchange, full Broadcast Wave support, proper EDL support (some RED work-flows still need this), project exchange with FCP and Avid via AAF. I think this is doable. I've used the DPX and OpenEXR support to get things in and out of a Smoke.

-A plug-in interface that allows temporal access to the media. Almost all of the editors here will not use a system that does not support the plug-ins they are used to. I'm talking about Genarts, Red Giant, CoreMelt, RE:Vision, Zaxwerks, Trapcode, The Foundry, and Boris. That is because they can transfer their familiarity with those plug-ins to whatever program they are using. The fact that Vegas only (barely) covers two of those, would leave a lot of editors I know feeling naked inside Vegas.

There are a lot of good things about Vegas. It's not perfect and probably never will be. No system has attained that. The programmers do seem to be listening and have added a lot that has been asked for. They are no where close to having everything that everyone has asked for, but as 9.0d should have shown, they are still interested in improving the product. They added the CC support that several had asked for. They added PSD layer support that people have been requesting for years.

Avid let bugs in Liquid linger for years before finally killing the product. The latest version of Flame still cannot cast shadows. The media manager in FCP still needs work. FCP projects aren't nearly as forward compatible as Avid. Premiere CS4 has trouble with long complicated projects and at one point was taking 15 minutes to load a project. Encore's Blu-Ray authoring wasn't as good as DVDA when we tested. There is a gamma shift going between FCP and AE using certain QT formats. Edius (which I like) is still missing some essential features, but it does have wicked playback performance that I wish Vegas could match. MC5 is also looking very good as is CS5.

The best solution is to use each product for what it does best.

PerroneFord wrote on 4/15/2010, 8:45 PM

Thank you for this post. I have not had a chance to sample some of the higher end programs, though I've read quite a lot about them and would love to. I am very limited in what I have around me. I've piddled with FCP, used Avid, Premiere, Vegas, and the older Canopus products.

1. The 32 bit processing inside Vegas is a feature I use all the time. I am somewhat surprised it is as unique as you have stated. However, I wish in Vegas it didn't decimate performance as much as it does. It's a royal pain having to cut in 8-bit then switch to 32bit for color. Then switch back if I want to play with my edit points. It's like having to work in two applications. The switch from 8-bit to 32-bit only happening with picture lock.

2. You'll note that I have been VERY vocal and supportive of Vegas's handling of RED. I've gone so far as to say that even when I move away from Vegas, that I would keep it around just for it's stellar REDCode handling. That continues to be true, though MC5 may put that to bed for me. The 4K timeline is something that I absolutely appreciate and seems to be unique to the mid-range pro apps. I am not sure how the support is for UHD with the high-end editors.

9. Network rendering is something I could use, but only very rarely. And as you say, having it available in this price range is really astounding.

The remainder of your post illustrates well, the frustration I have with the product. Some here feel that i am simply negative toward Sony and/or Vegas. That's simply not true. I *WANT* to like Vegas. I've spent 7 years in it, and spend my money on it. As you've pointed out, it can do some amazing things. But no matter how many capabilities are added, they all fall down because of the first two things you mention.

Playback speed is horrible. And call me crazy, but when you let me put my RED 4K files on the timeline, or those nice new DPX or EXRs, or even my XDCamEX files, I want realtime playback. Otherwise, what's the point of supporting those formats?

And secondly, I can't collaborate with anyone. Even with fundamental EDL support. I did color work on the last film I worked on, and the movie was cut in FCP. I had to literally shuttle raw media files back and forth on an external drive (using DNxHD files) to make the workflow happen. Getting audio into and out of Vegas is a nightmare despite it's prowess in mixing that audio.

You and I both know that the answer to these issues is easily available. But it is going to take a re-write, and a philosophical change to get there. I also agree with you that the programmers DO seem to be listening. The addition of DPx/EXR, the PSD with layers, captioning support, real RED support, etc., are things that we have asked for, including me asking directly in this forum and others. While my path is now somewhat predetermined, I hope that for the sake of others, Vegas 10 is a ground-up re-write. The GUI is fine. The audio tools are fine. But Vegas MUST open up to collaborate now, and it must leverage the incredible hardware that is available out there.

I hate that I have polluted Spot's 10-best thread with this stuff and wasn't going to post any more here, but I did want to address what you said, and say that I really appreciate your comments and your position.

Opampman wrote on 4/15/2010, 9:31 PM

"List the ten (10) things that you think make Vegas better than any other NLE. Brevity is appreciated."

Perrone

I thought SPOT was asking for reasons VEGAS was better than other NLE's...not Vegas bashing. Did I read his post wrong?

Kent

farss wrote on 4/16/2010, 1:57 AM

1) Edit vision and mix audio on the one timeline.
2) Record audio while playing back mixed tracks and vison e.g. ADR.
3) Will run on a basic laptop while do 2)
4) Basic but very usable compositing capabilities.
5) Throw anything onto the timeline and get a good enough outcome for most client's budgets.
6) Total cost of ownership low enough for most to make a return on investment.
7) Liberal licensing.
8) Download and install on any PC with internet connection.
9) Access all my serial numbers with one password.
10) Comes in the best looking box.
11) General lack of rabid fanboys.

Bob.

TeetimeNC wrote on 4/16/2010, 3:00 AM

1. I haven't seen Media Manager mentioned here. Although it falls short of a full Digital Asset Manager, I think its inclusion in the base product may be unique among popular NLE's.

2. DVDA is part of Vegas. A unique feature of DVDA is that it can burn Blu-ray to DVD media, which is really nice for video shorts.

/jerry

Spot|DSE wrote on 4/16/2010, 7:09 PM

some good ones so far...and there are two winners so far...Sony Creative has kicked in another sound library....if anyone wants to keep going.

PeterWright wrote on 4/16/2010, 8:26 PM

Takes

TheHappyFriar wrote on 4/17/2010, 5:50 AM

some good ones so far

I agree. It's interesting to see the direction some people take on things. It seems most people (so far) use vegas for it's strengths (which is what we should be doing).

TLF wrote on 4/17/2010, 6:05 AM

OK, here's my attempt. All the thing that I love and miss when I try using other NLEs...

Vegas works with very modest hardware. No need for the latest video cards, processors, or huge amounts of RAM.

Edits involving transitions don't require me to load an effect. Just overlap two events, and the transition is there, exactly the length I need!

Great ability to apply effects at either event, track or project level.

Audio editing tools are incredible! Master audio right on the timeline – no need for a dedicated DAW; Elastique time stretching; integration with ANY audio editor right from the timeline should I want it.

Sixtyfour- and thirtytwo-bit versions provided at no additional cost. Can install and use both at the same time.

Reliability and stability. I can rely on Vegas to get simple things like widescreen Aspect Ratio correct, and on the rare occasions when it crashed, a backup of my work will automatically reload.

Unrivalled provision of envelopes. Velocity envelopes, fx envelopes, panning envelopes, volume envelopes... Vegas has them all, and had them before other NLEs.

Liberal licencing allows me to install the software on more than one computer.

Exceptionally format agnostic. Throw almost anything at the timeline and it will play, incLuding mixed formats.

Surround sound (Dolby 5.1, AC3) mixing right on the timeline. No additional, expensive, licence required.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 4/17/2010, 7:35 PM

I've been a nay sayer of late, but I'm giving Vegas another go.

1) Scripting - the ability to install third party scripts to extend the functionality of Vegas is in many ways unique: Frameserving, Batch Conversion with Proxy Stream, Production Assistant just to name a few

2) The ability to drop files on the timeline and have them available is time efficient

3) The ability to install both 32 & 64 bit version at the same time - and even to have a second machine (in my case, my laptop) is a bonus for me.

4) Editing audio on the timeline is a major bonus for me as a solovj since I can sweeten audio in real time without leaving the timeline

5) Low system resources used when editing for the most part - critical when laptop editing

6) The ability to change project properties in the middle of a project

7) For those new to editing, Vegas is the most intuitive NLE for those who do it all - One Man Army production like myself

8) The ability to use Envelopes has become something I missed and I'm glad to have come back to Vegas - speed and efficiency is critical for the short deadline projects I shoot/edit

9) The ability to use Cineform Neo Scene in both versions has been a compelling reason for me to come back - I need Cineform for my editing and having 64bit Cineform is critical for me

10) The ability to just drag two clips together and create the exact transition I want is a god send under deadline

Cliff Etzel
Solo VJ : Web Designer
bluprojekt | SoloVJ Blog
--------
Desktop: OS: Win7 x64 | CPU: Q9400 | Mobo: Intel DG33TL | 8GB G.Skill Dual Channel RAM | Boot/Apps Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM |

Audio Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Video Source: WD Black 750GB | Video Render: WD Black 750GB 7200RPM | Video Card: nVidia GeForce GT 220 1GB

Laptop: Dell Latitude D620 | C2D 2.0Ghz | 4GB G.Skill RAM | OS: Win7 x64 | Primary HD: WD 320GB 7200RPM | Video HD: WD 250GB 7200RPM

CorTed wrote on 4/17/2010, 9:03 PM

1. Running more than one instance is a real bonus
2. Ease of the interface, extremely intuitive
3. Throw anything on the timeline and go....
4. Complete package for DVD/Bluray creation along with DVDA
5. Changing event settings on the timeline during playback.... priceless
6. Audio capabilities... endless
7. Scripting & VST, love it
8. I've tried Premiere hate it, too clunky slow and hard to figure out
9. I've tried Edius, hate it, got lost within minutes
10. I've tried FCP, hate it, old school, need I say more

Ted

Who plays with Vegas...stays with Vegas...

robwood wrote on 4/18/2010, 9:27 AM

i can't list 10

1) MULTIPLE INSTANCES
this is a BIG DEAL. i can fix a problem on a shot or reel while working on a completely different project: i often have 4-5 different productions to edit or CC and being to open/close a project without losing track of where i was in the previous 1,2 or 3 is great for my workflow.
2) EDIT DURING PLAYBACK (i love editing/cc'ing with timeline in play)
3) EXCELLENT AUDIO capabilities
4) BETTER INTERFACE (until a Minority Report style NLE is released)
editing is a very Orwellian experience to me. remove what you don't want people to see, make the rest look like it belongs ( even if it doesn't). Vegas lets me work more intuitively... ie: from audience p.o.v.
5) RELIABLE
regularly record uninterrupted audio (3-4 hrs) with 16-24 channels @ 24bit/48k to my laptop. edit 30-50 short films every 2-3 months... two RAID's have gone down in the last 3.5 years but only Vegas glitch i've experienced was the text bug (i think v9b?) and some red-frames (i'd re-render to uncompresssed avi to get rid of it)
6) ERGONOMIC
other NLE's have overly-large interfaces for their effects, track operations, scopes, etc. Vegas I can run on a laptop without rearranging the screen just to tweak the CC.

erikd wrote on 4/21/2010, 5:27 AM

So Spot, how did the contest go and did the competition come up with their top 10 lists as well? Perone..what's your top 10 things that Avid does that Vegas can't do?

Erik

JohnnyRoy wrote on 4/21/2010, 6:21 AM

I only have two words to describe why Vegas is better than any other NLE:

Organic Editing...

What I mean by this, is that I can work with my video and audio like a potter works with clay. Everything is directly manipulated from the timeline. Drop a video on the timeline... drag it around to move it.. change the length by dragging the edges, add fades by dragging the corners, change opacity by dragging the top edge, slip edit by alt+drag, do almost anything else by right-clicking an event and selecting from a context menu like adding a transition, push a button on the event to crop or add FX. EVERYTHING is done right there on the timeline to the actual event like paint on a canvas. I think that I can complete an entire edit session without ever once going to the menu. Everything I need to do is right there on the timeline, never breaking the creative flow... and all this while the timeline is still playing!!! Very organic.

Once you have edited in this way, you can never use another NLE. You are spoiled for life. ;-)

~jr

Jay Gladwell wrote on 4/21/2010, 6:35 AM

Good analogy, John!

Working with Vegas, as you described it, is very much like working with film and audio (mag film) on a flatbed editor (like the Moviola I learned on). It's all right there in front of you.

Rory Cooper wrote on 4/21/2010, 6:50 AM

John that’s exactly it you can implement your ideas while you are working without breaking the creative flow…

PeterWright wrote on 4/21/2010, 8:54 AM

Well said Johnny,

I'd like to propose that your post be given "Honorary Sticky" status on this forum.

John_Cline wrote on 4/21/2010, 12:42 PM

The one thing that JohnnyRoy and I have in common is that we both built machines that use the same Intel motherboard and Intel Quad-core Extreme processor. (Specs HERE) I still use this machine daily and it is the most stable machine I have ever owned.

I have always said that the most Intel-compatible machine is one that uses Intel components and this machine is all the proof I need. I have also built machines based on high-end Asus and Gigabyte motherboards and they have been mildly problematic. I have never had any issues with machines based on Intel motherboards, chips and CPUs. I have also had extremely good luck with SuperMicro motherboards, which curiously are the basis of the new SCS Vegas hardware bundles.

subchaz wrote on 4/21/2010, 1:25 PM

How come this is becoming a lets knock vegas stream,this should be for users to say what they like about Vegas,start a new post if you want to moan about it,some comments just dont ring true,ive used fcp that has it problems in fact its render times are awful,as for autodesk stuff it also suffers with slow play back i use combuston and it only plays short strips of the timeline at proper frame rate then i have to wait for it to catch up again,and as for avid i own lots of avid gear mainly pro tools rigs for studios but also media composer,fine when its running but it has crashed far more times than Vegas ever has and their product support is rubbish and they take so long to fix bugs,so if you cant say something good about vegas in this stream start a new post.

Guy S. wrote on 4/21/2010, 3:59 PM

1. Flexible file import simply drag media from Bridge, Windows Explorer, etc. right onto the timeline (no need to import, conform, convert, fold, spindle, or mutilate)
2. Native editing of most (all?) video formats
3. Still image import at full rez, so that resolution is maintained when you zoom in
4. Not limited to a single In and Out point!!!
5. Markers and Regions set in Trimmer window area saved in the media's file header!
6. Automatic crossfades
7. Because a transition only happens when you overlap two clips, the In/Out points you set for clips on the timeline will not change when you add a transition
8. You can play a portion of the timeline while adjusting a transition, motion path, color correction, etc.
9. 1st class audio recording, editing, mixing, and mastering... Input monitoring, clickless subsample editing, automated faders, keyframable effects.
10. Nearly every audio and video effects is keyframable
11. Effects can be applied to individual clips, and/or entire video tracks, and/or the final output (in other words all video tracks); you can cc individual clips, for example, then add a cc to the final output
12. Extreme Windows compatibility... Rename a file in the Project Window, and it's automatically renamed on your HD
13. Fast and easy speed changes on video clips
14. Pre-programmed and user-defined keyboard shortcuts
15. Easy to learn and use
16. Media Manager makes it easy to find and tag media assets
17. There are usually 5 ways to accomplish nearly anything you want to do, allowing you to work the way that YOU find easiest... Short project? Then just drag clips from Vegas or your favorite media browser onto the timeline. Larger project? Create bins to help organize your media. Really large project? Use Media Manager to locate, preview, tag, and add comments to media assets.
18. Makes you a better human being

TheHappyFriar wrote on 4/27/2010, 6:37 AM

just wonders how long this will sit here... not many responses any more (maybe this bump will get more!)