Apple Power Mac

fldave wrote on 11/22/2014, 6:29 PM
Here's a funny from a hardcore Apple fan friend of mine. Enjoy:

You'll enjoy this. I'm standing in an apple store with the Apple geeks when I asked
If you had a blank check- What system would you use for video editing?

Answer- Get a top of the line Powermac with 12 cores
Then running Sony Vegas in the windows emulator mode.
(That's the sound is Steve Jobs spinning in his grave).

Comments

JohnnyRoy wrote on 11/23/2014, 6:35 AM
I must admit that PowerMac slip up is funny but maybe they said that because:

Apple’s new ‘overpriced’ $10,000 Mac Pro is $2,000 cheaper than the equivalent Windows PC

So buying a top of the line Mac Pro to run Windows isn't such a bad idea after all. lol ;-)

BTW, I just bought a Apple Mac Pro Mid 2010: 12-Core (Dual 6-Core Xeon) 2.93GHz - 24GB Memory - 3x 2TB Hardware RAID & 1x 1TB HDDs, Radeon HD 5870 for $2275.25 on eBay. Top-of-the-line "last generation" Mac Pro's are a good deal right now.

It doesn't come until next Friday (5 business day shipping). My current Intel i7 3.2 Ghz 6-Core has a Geekbench score of around 18,000. The Xeon 12-Core 2.93Ghz Mac Pro has a Geekbench score of 27080! I can't wait to see how Vegas Pro performs on it. :-D

~jr
BruceUSA wrote on 11/23/2014, 10:55 AM
I like to add what the other people made comment about the high cost of the Mac PRO at the below link. I to, can certainly build a Windows PC for around $6000 will absolute destroy that high price Mac Pro. Paying 10K for that system is because people has a lot of $$$$$ to waste.

Intel i7 12700k @5.2Ghz all P Cores, 5.3@ 6 Core, Turbo boost 3 Cores @5.4Ghz. 4.1Ghz All E Cores.                                          

MSI Z690 MPG Edge DDR5 Wifi                                                     

TEAMGROUP T-Force Delta RGB 32GB DDR5 -6200                     

Samsung 980 Pro x4 Nvme .M2 1tb Pcie Gen 4                                     

ASRock RX 6900XT Phantom 16GB                                                        

PSU Eva Supernova G2 1300w                                                     

Black Ice GTX 480mm radiator top mount push/pull                    

MCP35X dual pump w/ dual pump housing.                                

Corsair RGB water block. RGB Fan thru out                           

Phanteks Enthoo full tower

Windows 11 Pro

Steve Grisetti wrote on 11/23/2014, 11:36 AM
Isn't buying a Mac just to run Windows on it sort of like buying a BMW and replacing its motor with the engine from a Ford?
OldSmoke wrote on 11/23/2014, 12:08 PM
like buying a BMW and replacing its motor with the engine from a Ford?

bad...very bad!

Edit:
I think the main difference in price comes from the GPUs used for the PC build comparison. You can't compare the D500 with the 9000 because the 9000 is far better. I think a W8000 or even W7000 would be more equal and hence the $2000 difference.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

BruceUSA wrote on 11/23/2014, 12:40 PM
What is so special about Apple Computer? They use Intel CPU aren't they? Everything they use is on the highest prices of their components. Paying more does not mean the system will perform better.

As I said above, you can get the same or better performance for much less $$$$.
You can build a Xeon 2X 2697 V3 and 2X 9 290X. If you shop around you certainly can get much cheaper price for the rest of the components. Paying $3400 for the graphic cards is a waste, especially come to video editing.

Intel i7 12700k @5.2Ghz all P Cores, 5.3@ 6 Core, Turbo boost 3 Cores @5.4Ghz. 4.1Ghz All E Cores.                                          

MSI Z690 MPG Edge DDR5 Wifi                                                     

TEAMGROUP T-Force Delta RGB 32GB DDR5 -6200                     

Samsung 980 Pro x4 Nvme .M2 1tb Pcie Gen 4                                     

ASRock RX 6900XT Phantom 16GB                                                        

PSU Eva Supernova G2 1300w                                                     

Black Ice GTX 480mm radiator top mount push/pull                    

MCP35X dual pump w/ dual pump housing.                                

Corsair RGB water block. RGB Fan thru out                           

Phanteks Enthoo full tower

Windows 11 Pro

JohnnyRoy wrote on 11/23/2014, 1:19 PM
> "Paying $3400 for the graphic cards is a waste, especially come to video editing."

I couldn't agree with you more! I have an NVIDIA Quadro 4000 that I paid $800 for and it in no way, shape, or form, did it give me $800 of performance while editing with Vegas Pro. It may be great for 3D CAD, but it does nothing for video editing. I would never be foolish enough to buy a workstation graphics card for video editing again.

But the comparison is not whether or not you would buy such expensive hardware, but that the Mac Pro gives you two workstation class graphics cards for far less than you could buy them for a PC. If you were a 3D designer using Maya, that would matter big time to you and save you money.

Also Final Cut Pro X takes full advantage of the dual workstation class GPU's on the Mac Pro and Vegas Pro does not so it would be silly for a Vegas Pro editor to buy a new Mac Pro for editing. I was just pointing out that if you were going to buy a workstation class computer, the new Mac Pro is a good deal.

(Note: that I did not buy one! ;-) I bought the older Mac Pro with a consumer Radeon HD 5870 card because I though that was a better value dollar for dollar)

~jr
MarkHolmes wrote on 11/23/2014, 1:52 PM
I'm running a 2010 Mac Pro as well - the best thing I ever did was swap out the GPU for a Radeon HD 7950. Best Vegas has ever run for me. I'm using Windows 7 in a Bootcamp partition, Vegas 13 btw.
OldSmoke wrote on 11/23/2014, 2:32 PM
I don't think the current Mac Pro is a good deal. the major drawback is upgradability which almost doesn't exist. the older models had a full size case and you could actually upgrade those but the tiny cylinder is a no go with mostly proprietary hardware in it.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

mdindestin wrote on 11/23/2014, 5:05 PM
The older Mac Pros on ebay have been enticing. Mine should be here tomorrow.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 11/24/2014, 7:01 AM
> "the best thing I ever did was swap out the GPU for a Radeon HD 7950."

Hey Mark, I was thinking of buying one. Did you get the Mac Edition (white) or a flashed PC card?

Have you ever run Maxon CineBench on it? What was your score?

My 2010 Mac Pro is coming with an HD 5870 which is better than the stock HD 5770 so I'm wondering how much more the HD 7950 will benefit me? What did you have before?

~jr
HyperMedia wrote on 11/25/2014, 1:07 AM
That's why I haven't been on this forum in three years. Once, I went to a Mac. Now, I'm producing syndicated TV shows internationally. Using Vegas Pro 13.
I'm running it on Bootcamp. But, I will be looking to upgrade with the latest iMac 5k or MacPro.

Let me say this" My Mac help me produce over 51, one hour long TV show in the last 3 years. I got a lot backlash from the PC community on this forum. About Vegas needs to go on the Mac platform. But of course I got the last laugh!

I would never go back to a PC.
Steve Grisetti wrote on 11/25/2014, 7:10 AM
But if you're running Windows in Bootcamp, you ARE on a Windows PC, HyperMedia. It's just got an Apple logo on it.
OldSmoke wrote on 11/25/2014, 7:29 AM
+1 Steve

But, for the not so tech savvy person, buying a Mac and running Win7 can be a good solution; you are just stuck with what ever is available and with limited upgradability.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

deusx wrote on 11/25/2014, 8:22 AM
That logic just doesn't compute with Mac owners. The Apple logo on their box is exactly the same as: "but this one goes to 11" ( Look up Spinal Tap movie if don't know what I'm talking about )
Cliff Etzel wrote on 11/25/2014, 10:58 AM
I've been looking at used HP Z800's on ebay which have dual Hex Core Xeon processors and support up to 192GB of RAM - even though the graphics card in them are barely usable. The very fact I can get a native Windows based workstation for less than $800 that has quite similar hardware specs (and it seems exceeds them) to a used Mac Pro Tower - I just don't' see the financial logic other than if one needs to run Mac software.

Maybe I'm missing some other part of the equation.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 11/25/2014, 2:17 PM
> "The very fact I can get a native Windows based workstation for less than $800 that has quite similar hardware specs (and it seems exceeds them) to a used Mac Pro Tower - I just don't' see the financial logic other than if one needs to run Mac software."

I don't see the specs of an HP Z800 exceeding a similarly priced Mac Pro. I bought a Mac Pro 2 x 2.8GHz Quad Core Xeon E5462 (8 Cores), 16GB RAM, 256GB SSD, 2TB RAID 0, ATI Radeon HD 5870 for $740 on eBay. This computer out performs those used on the Sony Red Car test! So for less than the price of an NVIDIA Quadro card I got an ATI Radeon HD 5870 with an 8-Core Mac Pro attached. lol ;-) (those cards are very close in performance)

Seriously, the ATI Radeon HD 5870 is an very capable card for editing with Vegas Pro so if you are paying $800 for an HP Z800 and then have to go out and buy a good GPU, I think my $740 Mac Pro is a better deal.

Now I'm not just running Windows on my Mac Pro. I'm mostly running OS X and, in fact, I'm seriously considering not creating a Bootcamp partition on my 2010 Mac Pro 12-Core when it comes on Friday because I haven't booted into Windows in over a month. If I need to run Vegas Pro, I run it in VMware Fusion. 99% of the time I'm using Mac software so for me, having a Mac is the only option.

It does seem silly to buy a Mac just to run Windows because, as others have pointed out, at that point it's just a PC. But it can still be cheaper than a comparably spec'ed PC, especially if you want workstation class Xeons.

BTW, the HP Z800's are nice computers. If someone asked me for a recommendation for a PC for video editing I would definitely point them to the HP Z-Series. They're built really well (I saw them at NAB and was very impressed with the build quality) That's probably what I'd be using if I didn't switch to Mac.

~jr
deusx wrote on 11/25/2014, 8:32 PM
Comparing prices of used hardware does not make sense.

I may luck out and get a tower with 12 xeon cores + top of the line quadro for a pikachu key chain. I've given away hardware myself.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 11/25/2014, 9:19 PM
> "Comparing prices of used hardware does not make sense."

I agree to an extent, however, you can get a "feel" for what used equipment is going for. I watched 12-Core Mac Pro's on eBay for a few months. I knew that around $2400 was the going price. I bid on several and lost because they went for around $2600 and some for as high as $2900 which was more than my ceiling price. I finally found one for $2275 with a Buy It Now and I jumped on it. So I agree with you that you could argue that a 12-Core Mac Pro cost $2900 or $2275 and you'd be correct on both prices. The point is they average at about $2400 so you can get a lot for your money by buying used which is what I did.

~jr
MarkHolmes wrote on 11/25/2014, 9:39 PM
Hey JohnnyRoy,
I got the Mac edition. Flashing cards makes me nervous. I would rather spend a little more money and have the peace of mind that a non-hacked GPU gives.
I just downloaded Maxon Cinebench for you. The results are a little depressing:
OpenGL - 44.99 fps
CPU 437cb
Comparing those scores to current i7s has me wondering if it's time for the Retina iMac. If I sell the old Mac Pro, and the Dell 27" monitor, I should only be spending around $1,000 for the iMac.... Hmmm.
Anyhow, I had the original GT120 before the 7950 so it was a BIG jump.

All I really want is Vegas Pro for OS X, really. Getting tired of the whole dual boot thing.
HyperMedia wrote on 11/25/2014, 11:11 PM
Yes I understand that... but what I'm trying to tell you. That same software running on my HP have problems.

It runs much better on my Mac. In three years .... I maybe had three crashes. But on my HP and Sony old Vaio PC machines. Multiple problems being stable( 8 crashes a day etc.) and rendering long form projects. Mac, albeit at a higher cost, but as Apple fans often say – their stuff just works, and it’s also well designed and made.

You can debate all you want. With my old PC's.... I spend so much time being a computer specialize. Always trying find out whats wrong and how to fix it.

In addition, I have been running Vegas Pro Connect on my iPad. It works!
JohnnyRoy wrote on 11/26/2014, 5:50 AM
> "I got the Mac edition. Flashing cards makes me nervous. I would rather spend a little more money and have the peace of mind that a non-hacked GPU gives."

Yea, I'm kind of coming to the same conclusion. The problem is that they are hard to find and OWC seems to be the only one who sells the Mac Editions and they are at a premium price. :( I'll keep watching eBay.

> "I just downloaded Maxon Cinebench for you. The results are a little depressing: OpenGL - 44.99 fps, CPU 437cb"

Are those results are under Windows or OS X? My results for the Radeon HD 5870 are:

OS X OpenGL - 39.13 fps
OS X CPU - 590 cb

Windows 7 OpenGL - 49.63 fps
Windows 7 CPU - 589 cb

Interesting that Cinebench Windows gets 10 fps better performance out of the exact same hardware! That speaks volumes about how good the "drivers" are not the hardware. Assuming your results were under OS X, your 7950 GPU is 5 fps faster at OpenGL than my 5870 my CPU is a bit faster. Please let me know if those are OS X scores or Windows 7 scores. I've got to believe they are OS X because I can't believe that my 5870 scored higher than your 7950. Open GL performance is important to me because that's what Boris FX uses for their Boris Continuum Complete plug-ins which I use on almost every project so I want them to perform well.

> "Comparing those scores to current i7s has me wondering if it's time for the Retina iMac. If I sell the old Mac Pro, and the Dell 27" monitor, I should only be spending around $1,000 for the iMac.... Hmmm."

The iMac everyone is talking about is the new iMac 5K. That's the one to get if you are going that route. You would currently spend $2400 on a 4K monitor alone so to get a 5K monitor with a computer attached for the same price it unbelievable! Apple definably wins the price wars on that one hands down! A fully maxed out iMac 5K with Core i7/16GB/AMD Radeon R9 M295X version is $3200. I seriously considered buying one but I'm not working in 4K and it was $1000 more than I wanted to spend right now. I'm hoping that going with a 12-core will help me more in the end.

> "Anyhow, I had the original GT120 before the 7950 so it was a BIG jump."

Oh, huge jump for sure! I'm spoiled because mine came with a 5870 so I'm really reading up on whether the 7950 will be a worthwhile investment for me.

> "All I really want is Vegas Pro for OS X, really. Getting tired of the whole dual boot thing."

+1

Sony will have a tough time competing with Final Cut Pro X. The trackless magnetic timeline is pure genius. I would never edit with a track based editor again. I hope Sony has their eye on the competition because it's a tough act to follow. Still Vegas Pro has audio chops that no other NLE can touch and that's what I miss the most when using FCP X. I can only hope that Sony is working on something good for Mac users now that Sound Forge has paved the way. Only time will tell. Thanks for the benchmarking.

~jr
mdindestin wrote on 11/26/2014, 6:46 AM
"Sony will have a tough time competing with Final Cut Pro X. The trackless magnetic timeline is pure genius."

And the media management/metadata as well.
TeetimeNC wrote on 11/26/2014, 7:24 AM
>Sony will have a tough time competing with Final Cut Pro X. The trackless magnetic timeline is pure genius.

JR, I've been under a rock and wasn't aware of the magnetic timeline so I viewed this tutorial. Very elegant! One question: are you able to do compositing in FCPX? For example, what if I want to duplicate the magnetic "track" and do an overlay composite?

/jerry
JohnnyRoy wrote on 11/26/2014, 12:50 PM
> "One question: are you able to do compositing in FCPX? For example, what if I want to duplicate the magnetic "track" and do an overlay composite? "

Absolutely! Overlays would be accomplished with connected clips. All compositing is done at the clip level so that you can have one clip in mask mode or screen mode and it doesn't affect any other clips (because there are no tracks to affect everything).

Sony did something similar to Connected Clips in Vegas Pro 12 when it introduced Sync Link where you can have a master/slave group relationship. I always got confused with Sync Link but in FCP X the primary storyline is always the master so it's easier to remember the behavior (i.e., connected clips always follow the primary storyline clips).

FCP X stole a LOT of ideas from Vegas Pro. I'm hoping Sony returns the favor and steals the magnetic timeline concept. They can call it he "Ripple Timeline" because it's similar to Sony's ripple edit but a little more eloquent. ;-)

~jr