Archiving Format?

CantKeepUp wrote on 12/27/2007, 8:48 PM

Sure this has been addressed in prior posts but as we all know everything is obsolete by the time you figure out... so how about an update:

I am archiving old home movies (VHS, Digital8, 8mm, MiniDV ect) to DVD. My workflow is capture to AVI format, then render a m2v & ac3 file, burn to DVD.

Works fine, but I always worry about saving the option to re-cut or do something else with the footage down the road. I would love to be able to hold onto the raw avi files (which are to my understanding, the highest quality and a breeze to re-import into vegas and work with /edit - unlike DVD files) but they are simply TOO big for me to store on my hard drives.

Hard Drives are much cheaper today, but i worry about crashes. Blue Ray can hold much more, but too expensive right now.

I think the solution is to render an addtional file (besides the basic mpeg2/m2v) to a more efficient format.

But what format?

Where are we today? Last i was visiting this forum, Divx Mpeg4 was cutting edge.

Any recommendations?

thanks in advance

Comments

rmack350 wrote on 12/27/2007, 9:01 PM

Maybe the simplest thing to do is copy the old media to DV tape. DV is not really the best but but it's good enough and very editable later on. It's shortcoming is that its color sampling is a little anemic.

So this is one opinion.

Rob Mack

musicvid10 wrote on 12/27/2007, 10:03 PM

To agree with Rob on one point, absolutely DV AVI is the most transparent and accessible format for archiving and future editing from the sources you listed. Tape is a non permanent medium however, so with cheap mass storage, why not put it on a big portable drive and store it in a closet?

On the other hand, if you just want to view it and not edit it later, DVD is a much smaller, portable, and universal format (just like VCR's, the players will probably be around forever).

JMT

TGS wrote on 12/27/2007, 10:11 PM

What I do, is save the .avis as a 'Data DVD' Just realize that the avi has to be about 18 minutes long in order to fit on a DVD. Your choice is to capture in 18 minute segments or Re-render 18 minute avi segments from a long capture. Overlap the cuts by a few seconds, so you can put the avis back together again. Takes about 3 DVDs per 55 minutes of avis. That's fairly cheap these days if you buy your DVDs by the hundred. Since you'll hardly ever go back and re-edit, this is a good way and doesn't take up a lot of space. Use a good quality DVD. Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim. I can still find 4X Verbatims at about 23 cents apiece if you buy in quantity.
Also, I think the general consensus is that Tape might last longer than a disc, but nobody seems to really know the answer for sure. Those cake box containers do come in handy for storing Data DVDs.

Chienworks wrote on 12/28/2007, 3:55 AM

I wouldn't bother overlapping the cuts. Vegas can cut and rejoin seamlessly. If you include an overlap then you end up with the extra effort of taking it back out when you reassemble the project. Why make extra work for yourself?

Dach wrote on 12/28/2007, 5:11 AM

I would have to support the use of a portable Hard Drive. While it may be the most expensive item, it will allow to have the most effecient work flow.

Depending on my projects the hard drive is automatic, but for the smaller projects DVD Data discs are used and kept in a CD wallett.

Chad

CantKeepUp wrote on 1/25/2008, 9:06 PM

Thanks for tips guys but the tape/harddrive archive solution is sort of what i am trying to avoid.

I guess i failed to mention a key point - I am also looking for a way to deliver source files to the client -(so, down the road, they could also have the option of editing)

Delivering with a Harddrive is clearly out of the question (price wise) and delivering on DV tape would sort of defeat the purpose of my service (pulling video OFF of tapes!).

Since the source format for the videos is usually krappy VHS, qaulity isn't so much of an issue. Being able to edit it again in vegas is still key, but if i had an extra step - like converting from mpeg4 (or whatever) back to .avi , i could live with that.

I really hate the "real time" hassle of reloading DV tape onto my system... Even though decoding and rendering back to .avi is also time consuming, it 's more of a "hands free" approach where i could click a few buttons and let my computer do the work overnite.

(plus, it might be a 2:1 time ratio encoding/decoding vs a straight tape capture, but i have to consider that it might be 5 years down the road before i need the footage again, and by that time computer systems will probably be able to decode/encode x20 faster)

So.. wondering where we are at right now... mpeg4? divx?

What would be the best format to archive too? (preferrably within vegas, ala "render as", vs pulling the files into a 3rd party encoding module)

Thanks!

johnmeyer wrote on 1/26/2008, 11:04 AM

Delivering with a Harddrive is clearly out of the question (price wise) ...

I think you might want to go through the math on that one.

Here's a link to a typical sale:

Seagate 500GB Ultra DMA/100 16MB Buffer ST3500641A-RK - Retail Hard Drive Kit.

This is $89.95, with free shipping. Thus for about $95 (including tax) you get 500GBytes. Now, let's compare that to DVD. A lot depends on what assumptions you make about disc quality and quantity purchases, but I can get Taiyo Yuden premium disc (hub-printable) for about $0.40/disc. I put them in jewel cases, although regular DVD cases are considered better because the disc surface doesn't contact the case. Cases cost $0.20/case. Thus, you pay $0.60 for 4.37 GBytes (a DVD holds 4.7 billion bytes, which is 4.37 GBytes). Thus the price per GByte is 0.60/4.37 = $0.14 per gigabyte.

Now that hard drive is 500 GBytes (may be a little less when formatted, but humor me). It costs $95 (and I added in the tax, which I didn't do for the disc and case). That's $95/500 = $0.19 per gigabyte.

Yes that's more, but not by a huge percentage. And the convenience of being able to just copy the files is enormous.

As to longevity, I have a laptop that has been on twenty-four hours a day since 1993. It is a 1987 Toshiba T1200 (8086 processor) laptop which I use to log all calls from my PBX phone system. It logs the calls to a floppy, so the hard drive is spun down 99.99% of the time. However, that old 20 megabyte drive still spins up and works fine, even after twenty-one years. Thus, I think that as long as you power up the drive every year or so, my guess is that it will last a long, long time. Remember, it is hermetically sealed, and the data is stored on an aluminum platter. If not subject to heat and constant mechanical stress, I expect it will last a LONG time.

Thus the hard drive solution is inexpensive, lasts a long time, and is a GREAT way to send large amounts of stuff to a client.

I was just asked to deliver the contents of fifty DVDs. I purchased a 320 GByte drive, attached four DVD readers to my computer, and simply copied them all to that drive. Took less than two hours to copy all fifty discs. I can't imagine anything easier.

As to what format, DV AVI is certainly the most editable, but if all you want to do is cuts-only reassembly of the video, you can do almost-instant, lossless cuts only editing of MPEG-2 DVDs using Womble. Apparently the 8.0b version of Vegas can do this as well. I do this almost every day, to reassemble and re-purpose work that I have previously done. I simply copy the DVD back to the hard drive, pop the VOB on the Vegas timeline, cut, export the cut list to Womble (I'm still using 7.0d which doesn't do lossless MPEG-2 cutting). I can re-purpose DVD content in minutes, with no re-rendering, and no loss. I can even do simply fades at the end of each video, and Womble with re-render just that one small section.