Archiving old Video 8 videos as MP4 question

ShaneJ wrote on 1/24/2012, 8:14 PM

I have a huge question here. Short version first, than the longer version below of what exactly I mean on all points. Should I render my MP4 files from my Video 8 (8mm) tapes as interlaced (upper field first), or as deinterlaced (progressive)? The progressive version doesn't look as good as the upper field first one.

Here are the details of what exactly I mean and what I'm doing and looking to do. I have a load of Video 8 (8mm) video tapes recorded from the Sharp Viewcam VL-E37U video camera purchased in 1995. I have about 70 or so tapes that span the years of 1995 to 2000. Then I have Video 8 (8mm) tapes from a Sony Handycam (don't know the model number) spanning from 2000 to 2003. I just recently started the process of video conversion and rendering these to DVD. Thing is, a lot of the videos I'm rendering are close to two hours meaning I have to compress and render the videos down to 4,000 to 5,000 kbps to make them fit on the disc. That's fine for viewing for now, but I know in time DVDs will be obsolete. So in addition to rendering these for DVD, I'm looking to also render these videos to a very high quality file using the Sony AVC MP4 codec. I'm using the highest compression settings for both video and audio to get the most out of this. I'm looking to save each of these videos on several external hard drives. With three terabyte hard drives out now, I'm sure I can save all 70 of these tapes rendered to the MP4 specs mentioned above easy. I'm doing this with the long term future in mind what with streaming media capabilities becoming more and more popular. I believe that is the future. I have a new LG television and home theater system. Both of which can stream media from my computer or an external hard drive or USB flashdrive. Looks great.

The device I use to capture these Video 8 tapes into my computer is the Sony GV-D200. It connects directly to the computer with Firewire. So I know I'm getting the best capture I can from analog to digital and that is what I want so that I can permanently archive these old videos.

So here's my big question.... How should I render these videos to MP4? I tried two tests with two clips on a USB flashdrive to see how they look on my television. Both MP4 files were rendered 640x480, the kbps were the highest available, somewhere above the 20,000 range. The audio in the 512 kbps range. The profile set to high, entropy coding CAVLC, and render quality set to best. Here what I did differently in the two clips and where my biggest question lies. In one clip I rendered as progressive and the other with upper field first. The clip with upper field first looked crystal clear, smooth, and perfect over the television. The motion was VERY smooth as it should be expected. The clip that was rendered progressive looked horrible. It looked slightly blurred in comparison to the upper field first and the motion was slightly jittery. Should I be rendering these MP4 files as upper field first? Once again, I'm looking to render these very high quality MP4 files with long term future storage archival in mind. I want to preserve the highest quality possible using a format such as MP4. I believe having these files databased in a storage space that can be streamed by home media entertainment is the future because I know we're not always going to be using DVDs and I don't want to have to eventually copy my home video DVDs from these converted tapes over to a stored file because like I said the DVDs are compressed down in most cases to fit on the disc. Having these videos stored as files on large hard drives is the way I want to go about it. I will store them on two or more hard drives for backup purposes. Hard drives are cheap enough now that I can have several each that are mirrored. That's not an issue.

So for long term video storage, should I have these rendered the same as the source as much as possible and keep them interlaced as upper field first since that is what the source appears to be? I'm really not looking to complicate these things as much as possible. There are from old tapes, so I don't see the need to go any crazier than I already am doing. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Comments

Former user wrote on 1/24/2012, 8:31 PM

If I read that right, the GV-200 is a digital 8 player. If so, then it would be native at Lower Field First. Your best archive option is to render Lower Field first, so that Vegas does not have to switch fields. You might find this to be a bit sharper than the upper field. When you render progressive, you are throwing out or interpolating the lines. Either way you are lowering the quality of the video.

Your best archive would be in the native DV-AVI format. That gives you about 20gigs per hour of video. MP4 and MPEG2 are highly compressed and are good for viewing, but not the best for archiving.

This would be an issue if you want to render to some future format. YOu want to come from the best quality if possible.

Dave T2

ShaneJ wrote on 1/24/2012, 8:42 PM

I know, I thought about that with the AVI. But there are some problems I have with that format. The GV-200 is in fact a Digital 8 recorder, but will play back in Video 8, Hi8, and Digital 8. My video tapes are Video 8. I assumed the original source was upper field because the template for rendering for DVD using the DVD Architect Video Stream template suggests using upper field. I tried to figure out what the source was by viewing codec details from the captured AVI, but it wouldn't tell me.

richard-amirault wrote on 1/24/2012, 8:46 PM

I'm looking to also render these videos to a very high quality file using the Sony AVC MP4 codec. I'm using the highest compression settings for both video and audio to get the most out of this.

The "most" what? Using this method will get you the maximum amount of files on your hard drive .. it will NOT get you the maximum quality. The LOWEST compression setting would be better .. but .. a mp4 is still compressed. As suggested use another method to save these files.

Former user wrote on 1/24/2012, 8:49 PM

Vegas should tell you at the bottom of the Project Media window. If not, then download Mediainfo and it will give you this information. If you are capturing as a DV-AVI then 99% it is LFF. If capturing as something like MJPEG, then it could be UFF.

Vegas is good at switching fields, but I advise against it if possible.

Dave T2

ShaneJ wrote on 1/24/2012, 9:03 PM

Will take up a lot more hard drive space, even a brand new empty 3TB exclusively for long term video archival storage, but if AVI is in fact the better option I will consider it. The only real problem I have with DV AVI is that the file format is not compatible with my LG TV or LG home theater box. I'm assuming that DV AVI is not supported by most digital media players. I wish to stream these rendered files to my television rather than use the DVD. At least have that option available in the future. The other problem I have with the DV AVI is that it doesn't allow me to adjust the aspect ratio and pixel settings like the other formats do. I once rendered an MP4 using the 720X480 resolution using the DV pixel aspect ratio. Looked fine on the computer with every media player I played, but when I played it on the television it showed the picture stretched out side to side a bit. I ended up rerendering the clip to 640x480 using square pixel setting and the aspect ratio of the clip looked very natural once streamed to my television.

johnmeyer wrote on 1/24/2012, 11:12 PM

Your stated reason for doing this archiving project is to be able to have something that is higher quality than your 4,000-5,000 kbps DVDs, and to have something which can later be edited.

MP4 is a bad choice.

DV AVI is a good choice.

The space for DV AVI is actually 13 GB per hour, not 20 GB per hour, so you should be able to easily fit your video onto a single hard drive. It will take only a fraction of the time to render to DV AVI as it will to MP4. Also, in order to get great quality on MP4, you will have to render at a data rate that will give you some reasonably large files, so I think in the end you might, at best, get a 2:1 improvement in space over DV, if that. The only downside to DV (other than using a little more hard drive space) is that it has a lesser color space, but given what you are starting with, I doubt this will make a discernable difference.

Finally, you MUST get the field order issue figured out before you proceed. There are a number of ways to easily determine field order. Within Vegas, here is how it is done:

- Open the project properties, and set the project framerate to exactly double the frame rate of your footage
- Set the project field order to "None (progressive scan)"
- Exit the project properties and set the Vegas preview to "Best (Full)"
- Make sure "smart resample" is enabled for the event (this is the default)

While you are checking the event to make sure that smart resample is enabled, also go to the Media tab in the Event Properties dialog and write down the field order for the event.

Then, on the timeline, move forward one frame at a time. If the field order you just wrote down is in fact the correct field order, you will see normal motion, with each field (you are now displaying fields instead of frames) moving forward in time from the previous field. However, if the field order you wrote down is the wrong field order, the motion will go back and forth, and back and forth. It is not subtle. If this happens, then you have the wrong field order and you will have to change it.

ShaneJ wrote on 1/24/2012, 11:36 PM

I'm trying to render Sony AVC MP4 using lower field first and it won't let me. It just errors out. Any ideas?

ShaneJ wrote on 1/24/2012, 11:40 PM

Thank you John. But is this for rendering in DV AVI, or in MP4?

ShaneJ wrote on 1/24/2012, 11:52 PM

John, I'm also curious about this color field in which you mention. Does it really make a difference? Because whatever other format I would render the footage to, it would all be rendered FROM the DV AVI. How could the color space improve from the rendering process to whatever it's rendered to? MPEG2 MP4.... etc... ? Would it be the same as the source DV AVI?

johnmeyer wrote on 1/25/2012, 12:06 AM

I obviously have introduced confusion. Ignore my post and proceed doing whatever you were originally planning to do.

ShaneJ wrote on 1/25/2012, 12:42 AM

No no. Your info sounds really good. Don't give up on me dude.

PeterDuke wrote on 1/25/2012, 1:10 AM

My understanding is that analogue video is stored on tape as a series of alternating upper field first and lower field first fields. There are no frames, and the tape is neither UFF nor LFF.

After digital capture, a pair of fields are combined to form a frame and we end up with a series of frames which are either UFF or LFF, depending on the capture device. DV AVI is always LFF, but MPEG2 capture can be either UFF or LFF.

If you capture (convert to digital) your Video 8 or Hi 8 analogue tapes in a Digital 8 camera, the output will be DV and hence LFF.

To make a DVD, this DV has to be converted to MPEG2, which can have either field first. Since there is a slight quality loss from converting field order in Vegas, it is best to specify LFF when you are rendering DV to MPEG2.

If you plan to convert your videos to some other format then stick with the same field order as the source unless you have to change for some reason.

ShaneJ wrote on 1/25/2012, 10:38 PM

Okay, that sounds reasonable sticking with lower field first. However, whenever I try to render MP4 using lower field first, I get an error. For some reason Vegas won't let me render Sony AVC MP4 lower field first. Anyone know why?

PeterDuke wrote on 1/26/2012, 5:26 AM

Why do they need to be AVC MP4? Why not MPEG2?

ShaneJ wrote on 1/26/2012, 8:15 AM

Because I need a format for streaming to my digital media player.

rs170a wrote on 1/26/2012, 8:52 AM

I've transferred hundreds of hours of VHS, regular 8, Hi 8 and Digital 8 to DVD and all I've ever done is capture the footage in DV-AVI format, drop it on a Vegas timeline, match the project properties (4:3 or 16:9) and render to MPEG-2 and AC-3.
I never worry about field order as Vegas is quite capable of figuring this out on it's own.
If the program is under 70 min. long, I use a CBR of 8,000,000.
Anything longer and I do it as a 2-pass VBR with settings as determined by my favourite bitrate calculator.
As others have suggested, I recommend storing the original video in DV-AVI format as this will be much easier to edit at some point in the future.
You can render again for whatever format you want/need for your digital media player.

Mike

PeterDuke wrote on 1/26/2012, 9:32 PM

Well I was able to render some DV AVI to Sony AVC MP4 using lower field first using the default settings. (It was about 1/7 the size of the corresponding MPEG2 using defaults, but the quality didn't look quite so good (rough comparison only).

I was able to view both on my hardware network player, although the MP4 was a bit hesitant at first.