Audio Video Sync Problems after Render

Lightning wrote on 11/10/2006, 8:31 AM
Hi, I’m new to this software and not sure if I am doing something wrong. I am pulling TV shows off my TiVO so I can remove the commercials and put them on a DVD to save.

I placed the show in Vegas Movie Studio, found the start of a commercial and hit the "s" key, then found the end of the commercial and hit the "s" key. I then clicked the commercial section and deleted it. Once deleted there was a gap between show segments, so I clicked and dragged them together until they snapped to each others edge.

I’m writing what I did just in case the way I am doing it is causing my problem. I do no fancy features of the program, just strictly removing show segments from the show.

I click "Render As" and select the options:
"MainConcept MPEG-2 (*.mpg)"
"SVCD NTSC"

The description says the new file created will be:
Audio: 224 kbps, 44,100 Hz, Layer2
Video: 29.97 fps, 480x480
"Use this setting to create an NTSC SVCD-compliant MPEG-2 File"

The original Video properties are as follows:
Audio: 48,000 Hz, Stereo, MPEG-2 Layer 2
Video: 29.97 fps Interlaced, 352x480x32, MPEG-2

I then click save and away it goes.....for over an hour. After it finishes and I view the newly created file, I notice the audio and video are not matched. In fact it’s so far off its unwatchable.

I viewed it in Windows Media, Nero Showtime, Vegas Movie Studio, and my TiVo, and they all show the sync problem.

For Vegas I actually created a new project and brought the new video in and played it in there. The audio was also off quite allot.

Now when I had the original file in Vegas and I was removing the commercials, the audio video sync was perfect. I moved the starting play bar throughout the show and played at different places within the show and had no sync problems at all. So the original file is fine and has no problems at all.

I even tried it on my wife’s computer with the same settings and everything, and after rendering, I had the sync problem again.

It seems it’s a problem with Vegas. Or maybe how I am trying to do this.

Please, I hope someone out here can help.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Comments

gmes29 wrote on 11/10/2006, 10:14 AM
sounds like a simple case of the audio portion that corresponded to the deleted video not also being deleted along with the video.. you need to use the auto-ripple feature which you can find on the toolbar.. i'm still a little confused on how ar should work myself but here's what works for me..
set auto-ripple to 'All affected tracks'
when deleting the commercial segments, right mouse on the video portion, select group, delete all..
this will automatically delete the segments of all the tracks that are in the same area of the timeline as the deleted video while at the same time, the ar will automatically fill in the resulting gaps in all the tracks left by the delete..
Lightning wrote on 11/10/2006, 10:41 AM
I will try this, but my issue is not an editing problem. The audio and video are synced perfectly in the time line when I watch it with edits. Its after I render and watch the newley created video that the audio is off.
I will try it tonight and re-post the outcome tomorrow.

Thanks.
Strangeman wrote on 11/10/2006, 11:14 AM
I think you'll probably find that this problem starts with the capture. It has happened to me in the past, and the problem disappeared when I used my video camera as a capture device.

Are you able to change your capture settings so that they match your render settings more closely ?
Lightning wrote on 11/10/2006, 11:28 PM
Unfourtunatly, what you requested did not work.

I also, just to try, took an mpeg video that had audio video fine and rendered it. I made no changes AT ALL to the file in Vegas. I put it on the time line, and then rendered it.

This also gave me an audio video sync problem.

Again, like I said, the originals are all fine as well as the edited project within Vegas. Its only after I render the project and view the newley created mpeg file do I get the miss match.
Chienworks wrote on 11/11/2006, 10:27 AM
How far is it off? At the end of 30 minutes is it maybe about 2 seconds?
rustier wrote on 11/11/2006, 10:44 AM
editing a compressed format (like tivo) is going to be trickier than with regular DV. I would be willing to bet the difference where you thought you edited and where you actually edited is the sync difference due to the way it "blocks" the information. I would suggest you go back and re-edit using the break in the sound (where the meter drops off) as your cue rather than the visual - which can be misleading when working with compressed formats. As was suggested make sure you delete both audo and visual - which I am sure you understand. If you still have issues you can break out the sound seperately and squeeze or stretch it a little by using the control key and left clicking and dragging the sound whichever way you want to go. Render a small section of the area in question to see if you need to re-adjust. I have been able to iron out a number of sync issues with some old stuff I had.
Good Luck with it!
womanmarine wrote on 11/11/2006, 1:28 PM
If I could make a suggestion :)

I would try to render the original full file to AVI and then edit that. Then render the result to whatever format you want.
Lightning wrote on 11/11/2006, 9:10 PM
Thank you guys for all the help. I will try both options. AVI, and editing using the audio drop off instead of visual. Ill post back my findings.

I appreciate all the help.
Lightning wrote on 11/12/2006, 12:35 PM
No luck :(

I I used an unedited file and rendered it into an AVI file, but the audio and video was still off after rendering. Its pretty bad. Only a few minutes into the show, it was off almost 5 seconds.

And for the editing using the audio and not the video as my que, Im a bit lost on how to do that. I tried looking at the audio to see where to cut secton out, but because of music along with voices, I dont know where it starts or ends.

This is begining to look like a lost cause.
Jim Y wrote on 11/12/2006, 1:42 PM
I haven't seen this post-render (yet!).

However, I am concerned as to why VMS is so obsessed with 44.1Khz for the audio, when the original capture is at 48Khz. I stand to be corrected, but I always thought the standard for DVD audio is 48Khz?

So far I've been forcing the audio format to 48K before putting any media in the timeline - but my soundcard still gets switched to 44.1K when I transfer to DVD Architect and there's no option I can find to change it there. The .wav audio I get from VMS post render is 48Khz

Maybe...
If in the render, the codec were to fail to properly sample-rate convert (SRC) the 48K to 44.1k, the sync to video might easily get screwed.
When you view the original in VMS and the audio device is other than ASIO, it can play the wrong sample-rate - Windows has a real-time SRC for it's audio, so you might not hear anything wrong there!

Anyhow, try setting the audio option for 48K before adding one of your 48k captures - just to see what happens.


Lightning wrote on 11/12/2006, 7:05 PM
Well I tried setting the Audio to 48k, but no matter what I do, when I render it wants to make it 44.1k. I cant seem to find how to force it to stay 48k, unless I do a DVD and not SVCD.

Also what I found while watching the new files more closely is that each section seems to be synced up, or very close to it, but as it aproaches the end of each section, the audio drifts out. And by each section, I mean whe I cut out the commercials it created like five smaller sections I had to move together.

Maybe this will give a bit more insite to what might be going on.

Oh yeah, and might I add that Nero seemed to have no problem cutting commercials and creating a DVD. To bad I am set on using Vegas and trying to crack this problem.
Andy C wrote on 11/13/2006, 3:37 AM
I've started to trial Womble's excellent MPEG Video Editor and VideoReDo Plus. Both these products are tailored to removing commercials and other trim-based editing. The real beauty of them is that when you save the editied MPEG it simply joins up the splices and doesn't have to re-encode the whole file again. The result is that it saves back as fast as a regular file copy would.
VideoReDo also has intelligent ad-break detection and video/voice re-synchronisation - which is what rang a bell when you said you had sync problems. Both companies offer a full-featured eval copy. It may be worth trying VideoReDo for your purposes.
Lightning wrote on 11/13/2006, 8:06 AM
Thanks, I will give it a try. But here is a bit more info on my problem. I am starting to think that this Vegas Software is a pile of you know what.

I put a full show on the time line. I cut off a section from the very beginning that was about 5 minutes long. I then cut off all the rest of the show leaving one 5 minutes left. I slid the show portion to left until it snapped to the edge. SO now I’m left with a 5 minute section that is somewhere in the middle of the original file.

I render it as what I have been trying to do, a SVCD NTSC. The output was perfect. No problems on a 5 minute section from start to finish. So put the original back in the time line and did it again, but this time I made two 5 minute sections. And I separated them on different tracks, and then rendered using the loop region only. The loop region was on the second 5 minute section that was placed on a separate track and not butted up against the first section. It was just placed somewhere in the time line.
So I render the second one and no problems at all from start to finish. That’s two 5 minute section, one placed at the very beginning, and one just off in the time line somewhere. Both rendered fine.

Now I thought I fixed it somehow, so I created another file and edited the commercials as if the program was actually working. Cut the commercials, moved the section together, rendered the project.

Well the audio was way off. So I took that same project and put a loop region around the second section of show...about 5 minutes into the show, and about 10 minutes long. I rendered that, and not even a minute into the new file, the audio was off.

It seems it has a problem putting the chopped pieces together, but if they are by them selves, it works fine. That’s really too bad, because it looked like this software can do some pretty cool stuff. But if it can’t even do something as simple as cut a section of show out without loosing sync, that doesn’t sound like a good piece of software. Heck, even Nero doesn’t have a problem.
IanG wrote on 11/13/2006, 10:21 AM
VMS can do some very cool stuff - unfortunately that doesn't include reliably editing MPEG2 files! In fairness, as has been said many times in this forum, MPEG2 is a delivery format - it's not supposed to be edited. If your main aim is to remove commercials from recorded TV shows, then you'd probably be better off with a dedicated app. If you're looking for a more general purpose NLE, then please stick around - VMS takes a lot of beating!

You may be able to fix your current problem by using VirtualDub to create an avi which VMS can edit and encode for SVCD. Be warned though, it'll take lots of time and disk space!

Good luck!

Ian G.
Lightning wrote on 11/13/2006, 10:46 AM
Well problem solved thanks to Andy Cippico.

I gave up on VMS for the editing. I will try it for the DVD creating part though. I have got that far yet. But I tried the software he recommended "VideoReDo". It’s a trial, but for what I’m doing, Ill be done before it runs out, lol.

Anyways, that software doesn’t look to professional, but man does it work great. Thanks so much for leading me onto that. As for the other one you mentioned " MPEG Video Editor", I think they are having problems. I was unable to download the file.

Who knows, maybe VMS will come out with a patch that will fix this issue. Until then, I am happy using VideoReDo.
Andy C wrote on 11/13/2006, 10:58 AM
Hi Lightning,
I really can't explain the problem you're having there, and I have to say that I've never used VMS to edit MPGS, even though it should do. So without prior MPG editing experience in it I'm at a loss to solve your problem. I personally believe VMS is targeted mainly towards a DV-camcorder audience and as a result it's exceptionally good at dealing with AVI files. I have produced many satisfying DVDs using it, so I know it's not a 'pile of you know what'.
If all you want to do is to trim Tivo recordings then Vegas is an overkill for you. I really advise looking at the two products I mentioned for that kind of stuff. You'll find it a much quicker experience.
Hope that helps.
A.
Andy C wrote on 11/13/2006, 11:15 AM
Guess I need to refresh my browser before posting! Sorry about the timing mix-up.
Glad you're having some success with VideoReDo. Yes, it's a garish interface but it does the job well.
A.