Avoiding re-compress of 1080 30p Media for Blu-ray

Elizabeth Lowrey wrote on 9/23/2015, 10:55 PM
I have some 30p media (high frame rate RED Epic footage shot at a timebase of 29.97) which I placed in a 1080 30p Vegas project with lots of velocity envelopes and Boris RED effects applied to the clips. This is meant to be used as a menu on a Bluray project. Because of the extreme dynamic playback rate resulting from the velocity envelopes, and to avoid artificial motion blur, I disabled resample on ALL events in the timeline.

Things look great in Vegas and on a straight 30p output file played in a computer media player. But then I found out to my surprise that 1080 30p is not officially part of the Blu-ray spec, only 60i. I was told by a learned user on the RED camera forum that I could render to a compliant format (AVC) at 30p but needed to "flag that file for 2-2 pulldown". He has not responded to follow up on that issue.

I understand the concept he mentioned very well -- the result should be transparent in the end because the two "interlaced fields" are actually coming from the same instant in time and when recombined on playback should look exactly like 30p. The problem is I don't know how to accomplish that in DVD Architect (in combination with Vegas) without recompression

When I render out from my 30p Vegas project to AVC 30p -- which requires a modified template since there is no "Bluray" template in Vegas for 1080 30p -- DVD-A will force a recompression of the file. I haven't even actually done a test disc because I can't get past the optimize disc function that will force a recompression. I'm pretty sure things would look fine from a temporal/blur standpoint since there is simply no additional information available in the media from which to construct 60 interlaced fields other than the 30 progressive frames. But I'd like to avoid recompression if at all possible.

I tried rendering 60i out of my 30p Vegas project. Results were identical to what I obtained when I changed the project properties to 60i and rendered 60i out of that: both, i.e., both contained clear interlacing artifacts and blurring, and this despite "disable resample" on all events. Toggling the "adjust source media to better match project and render settings" switch in project properties did nothing to alter these results. "Deinterlace method" was set to "none," even though that should have no relevance.

Does anyone know how to accomplish my desired result either by flagging a 30p file so that DVD-A will actually accept it as compliant or by some other trick? The only other option I can think of is to render 30p uncompressed (which is going to challenge me from a disc space standpoint) and then let DVD-A compress that at the authoring stage at the same time as it's constructing a fake 60i AVC file.

Comments

PeterDuke wrote on 9/23/2015, 11:27 PM
Did you have your project properties/deinterlace method set to "none"? This tells Vegas that the source is progressive. Then render to a Blu-ray compliant 60i template in Vegas. DVDA should not recompress.
Elizabeth Lowrey wrote on 9/24/2015, 1:08 AM
<Did you have your project properties/deinterlace method set to "none"?>

Per the last sentence of the next to last paragraph, "yes." I almost never use interlaced footage anymore, so it stays set to "none" as my default, but that did not stop the rendered file -- either out of a project set to 30p or 60i -- from showing the identical indications of interlacing in the final output. I'm positive it was set to "none" on one of those renders, and I'm almost positive it was set to "none" on both, although I was clicking around trying different things and may have accidentally changed it. I will do a re-render of 60i out of a 30p project and verify to 100% that it is set to none and report back. But so far I have been unable to get a file out of Vegas that is nominally 60i but that looks and behaves as 30p.
musicvid10 wrote on 9/24/2015, 7:34 AM
Even if, through another means, you succeed by misflagging 30p as 60i for the player, or "some other trick," the fact that it's being used in a menu means it will always recompress regardless. I know or no way to avoid that.

There "will" be a newer BluRay version spec from what I read, but I don't know when. In the meantime you can shoot 24p and avoid the roadblock. I also believe 720p 30 is an allowable BluRay format, am I correct?

I also suggest you render a compliant 60i project in Vegas, give it to Architect, and let it render the menus, and see how it looks in your living room, not on a monitor. It might look acceptable.

Or, shoot and render 24p for the menu media, leaving the program alone. They should play fine together on your BluRay disc.



Chienworks wrote on 9/24/2015, 8:31 AM
" lots of velocity envelopes and Boris RED effects applied to the clips"

You're altering the video. There is no way to render this without recompression. Period. Recompression can only be avoided if you're copying the source video to the output without alteration. I'd suggest that you do render to a lossless or near lossless intermediate. Uncompressed is fine. If this is for a menu it really shouldn't be very long and therefore shouldn't take up huge amounts of disk space.

Also note that "disable resample" and "interlace artifacts" are not related to each other. Resampling affects how frames are combined when frame rates change, but has no effect on interlace or deinterlacing.
Elizabeth Lowrey wrote on 9/24/2015, 11:19 AM
Chienworks, for clarification, I wasn't talking about avoiding recompression OUT of Vegas but avoiding recompression WITHIN DVD-A. I'm well aware that there would be recompression of effect-altered clips in Vegas. There would be regardless of effects since I'm taking R3D raw files shot at 5K HD and outputting them to (ostensibly) Blu-ray compliant AVC at 1080.

As for the note about interlacing, all I can tell you is that Vegas absolutely is interlacing the output whenever I try to render out of Vegas a 60i file, no matter what project settings are (29.97 progressive with "de-interlace" set to "none" to indicate progressive media or 29.97 interlaced as the project setting). You can CLEARLY see the tell-tale jagged horizontal lines and temporal displacement in either output even at normal speed playback and certainly on individual frames when you A/B the rendered file in Vegas over the original media.

My theory is that when you are using velocity envelopes, you are asking Vegas to essentially synthesize "new" frames. If you leave everything at default, it will do this by blending FRAMES in progressive media with progressive output render settings. If you disable that resampling, you will get only repeated/dropped frames on progressive renders but new, synthesized FIELDS interpolated from the progressive media if you output to 60i.

Last night I rendered a 30p version to an intermediate codec hat looks great on media player or Vegas playback. I plan on feeding that to DVD-A and letting it do its thing, recompressing to ACV 60i. However since this media is straight 30p,with no velocity envelopes in an editor, I don't think there's any way DVD-A will make 60i other than a transparent 2-2 pulldown, which is fine. I will report back if it proves otherwise.
Former user wrote on 9/24/2015, 11:37 AM
Turn off the "adjust source...", that just causes issues.
Have you tried rendering to an MPEG2 60i Bluray template?