I almost always use PicVideo for my intermediates. Compression is faster, and file sizes are smaller. Moreover, Vegas 9c-64 bit can open the PicVideo files even though I haven't paid for the 64-bit version of PicVideo (after I create them in 8c or 9c-32bit).

However, I once compared PicVideo with Cineform - compressing the same clip 6 times and putting both on new time lines, one under the other. By muting the one on top, I could compare the two. In some cases, I did frame captures to .PNG and opened the stills in Photoshop. After 6 generations, I can say that Cineform gave a very slight, but noticeable, advantage. I should note that the advantage is only visible in really high-quality sources - I couldn't see any difference when my source clips were from my Sony HC-1s. But because you want best possible quality and have good-quality source clips, I'd recommend Cineform.

Really important advantages of both Cineform and .mxf is that they smart-render on parts you haven't changed. That really cuts down on damage as you fine tune a project. The main thing I use the PicVideo codec for is unstandard frame sizes which aren't allowed in Cineform, m2t or mxf formats.

Thank you so much guys. I think I will give neoscene a try ...
I did not know the PicVideo codec yet (shame on me); does it come with Vegas or does one have to buy it?

Thanks in advance,

Larez

I still don't know what PicVideo is. Not sure I'd use it anyway.

PicVideo (by Pegasus) is an MJPG codec that is very flexible - any pixel dimension, interlaced or progressive, etc. At its highest setting, it yields 4:4:4 color space - but at the cost of large files. I usually move the quality slider to "19" which produces almost lossless files, with smaller file sizes than Cineform.

I think I paid $30 for PicVideo, but prices have increased. However, someone posted a link to a site that sells it for about $40 - a bargain (price for the 64-bit version is exhorbitant; but, as I mentioned, I create the intermediates in 32-bit Vegas, then the 64-bit Vegas can open them using the MJPG playback codec included in Win7). Search this forum for the post for the bargain price- probably about a couple of years ago.

Cineform has some other less obvious advantages. One is that it converts the color space from cRGB to sRGB (forgive me if I've got my terms wrong yet again). In other words, as you drop a video clip on the timeline, the native Canon .mov clip will be too contrasty and the highs will be blown out, kind of like if you drop a still on the timeline. Cineform compensates for this as it converts.

Another thing that Cineform does is to fix the frame rate if it is off. The Canon DSLRs record at 29.97 fps but go a step down and use footage from a Canon SX1, SX10 or SX20 and you'll find that it is 30p rather than 29.97. Cineform will slow it down slightly as it converts so that footage from these cameras will also be the proper 29.97. Boy is that nice.

Add those advantages to the fact that Cineform smart-renders, previews wonderfully well, can go oodles of generations without noticable quality loss, and is generally very stable sharing a timeline with hundreds of other clips and you really have a wonderful format.

You consider those advantages. I don't. I don't want my codec to change my color space. If I want it changed, I'll do it myself. If I am delivering to the web, i *WANT* cRGB, same if I am delivering to film. And if I am delivering to computer, I don't WANT a fractional frame rate. I want the whole number 30.00 frame rate.

Cineform is built on Jpeg2000. Just like REDCode. It's excellent, but has it's issues. It is proprietary, and readers beyond quicktime have to be installed. It is not able to be written and read across platforms as easily as one would like. Using it for resolutions beyond 1080 can be costly.

The primary advantage of Cineform, is that it allows programs like Vegas and Premiere to have a codec that works well on the timeline. The .MOV based codecs cannot do that.

Strangely I find that cRGB doesn't look perfect for web delivery either. The blacks look better but the whites blow out. I usually end up using a sort of cross between the two with the blacks going down to zero and the whites topping out at 235. The Cineform conversion matches the Canon footage to my Sony HDV color-space wise and yes I do prefer that to the unconverted look.

Understood. I massage the colors and luma as well, but I don't want my codec making that choice for me. I'd rather do it the way "I" want it. DNxHD gives you the choice which is nice. You can tell it the source is Rec601/709 or RGB and it respects that.

I have a core2duo laptop that stutters with .mov wrappers but plays Cineform .avi clips without dropping frames. Judging by the way it plays back Cineform in a .mov wrapper I would say that the DNxHD encoding would be just fine if they had it in .avi wrapper. I understand that people with faster computers aren't bothered by this at all.

Plus, with Cineform I believe that the color correction is merely a playback change and not something that is actually encoded into the data.

... thanks again for your profound help, guys!

I just purchased neo scene and now I have one question left (hopefully):

My material was shot with 30 fps and I live in Europe. Thus my final product will be 25 fps. Would you let neo scene do the conversion to 25 fps or would you keep true 30 fps and let vegas do the conversion to 25 fps in the end of the editing process?

thanks in advance,

larez

ok, correction after installing neo scene:

obviously a pulldown to 25p through cineform is not possible (only to 29,97 or 24).
so i will select 'keep original framerate' and let vegas do the conversion from 30 to 25 frames...

- - -

what really bugs me, is that neo scene crashes instantly after pushing the 'start' button.
i use v1.5 (from today) on win7 / 64bit. i installed ac3filter v1.63full at first, then neo scene.
here is what i do and what happens:

1. start neo scene
2. select convert dialog
3. load single mov-file or folder with two mov-files
4. set prefs (output settings > different folder; do not overwrite)
5. open log-window
6. push start button
> 'converting ...' appears in the lower left corner of the program window.
> no entries occur in the log window
> program freezes; can not be exited without using the windows shutdown dialog.

any ideas?

thank you / kind regards, larez

File a trouble ticket here
http://supportcenteronline.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=614

I'm only guess is weird things can happen if you use MOV sources and don't have a semi-recent version of QuickTime installed.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm

hello david,

thank you for your prompt reply. spending the whole weekend i solved the problem myself: obviously neo scene (win) has problems with long folder names and/or special characters like ' ( ' or ' ) ' . After shortening my folder names and removing special characters the fatal crashes were history....
too bad i tried this in the end - after numerous fruitless registry-hacks, system recoveries and uninstalls/reinstalls ... grmpfff.
maybe your programmers can fix this issue; otherwise a hint would be fair.

- - -

now another thing worries me:

- My souce material has 30 fps (canon 5d mk2)
- The final product must have 25 fps (blue ray / europe) or 30 fps (wmv)
- i want to use neo scene for a conversion from 30 fps mov-files to 30 fps avi-files
- although i select/check 'maintain original source format' in neo scene
the software produces avi-files with 29.97 fps (in the log-window
one can see the entry 'matching audio to 29.97 fps' too).

Is there anything I missed? Or is there a problem with maintaining
30 fps?

thank you / best

larez

30fps is not a broadcast (or BluRay or DVD) standard anywhere in the world. So converting to 29.97 is the correct thing to do.

Also, I suggest you rad the BluRay spec. There is no 25p in it.

thx perrone,
i checked the specs on the official german blue-ray-site; but there is no information reagrding fps, sry. source:
http://www.bluraydisc.de/ueber-blu-ray#technischer_hintergrund

but sony dvd architect has a template called 'blu ray 1080 / 25p' - this might have lead me on the wrong track.
so what fps-value is the one to go with for blu ray?

i surely know that 30 fps is no broadcast standard, but you can render wmv-files with exact 30 fps. and i want to do this occasionally.

as you might know canon has announced a firmware update for the 5d, giving users the oppotunity to shoot with true 25 fps. what would you do in neo scene with such material? if the 'maintain function' does not work as well, what will happen to my source material? 25 fps > 29.97 fps? hopefully not.

thank you / best, l.

OHMIGOODNESS! I am wrong. I just rechecked the specifications. There is a 25p. Ignore what I said.

My apologies.

@ david (cineform):
in reference to my questions related to the 'maintain source frame rate' function of neo scene i found this link:
http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=3287

it seems canon will implement a true PAL / 25 fps mode in the next 5d firmware.
how will neo scene treat such material if the checkbox 'maintain source frame rate' is checked? at the moment it makes 29.97 fps footage out of my 30 fps files if the box is checked.

thank you / kind regards

larez